Session Start: Sun Jul 21 07:23:08 2013
Session Ident: #thehalloffire
* Now talking in #thehalloffire
* Demosthenes changes topic to ‘The HOF topic this weekend: the hero and the heroic in The Lord of the Rings. | General TORn chat thataway! click –] #theonering.net’
[Demosthenes] i foresee today being slightly complicated if people are still watching the comic con livestream
[Demosthenes] Okay, let’s get this topic started.
[Darkover] Mae govannen, all!
[Demosthenes] hi Darkover. We’re just starting. (I’m still waking up)
[Darkover] Hello, Goldberry, Erkenbrand, and Chris! 🙂
[Darkover] Howdy, Demosthenes! Sorry I couldn’t make it last week.
[Demosthenes] np!
[Gondhir] #Let’s get this topic started on a Saturday night#
[Gondhir] #Everybody’s waiting… for Dem to arrive#
[ChristineGolden] You were missed.
[Darkover] Thank you, Chris!
[Demosthenes] This week we’re talking about the hero and the heroic in lord of the rings.
[Katya] wait…. wasn’t that next week.
[Darkover] Right, thank you
[Demosthenes] So, it seems sensible to start with … what exactly is a hero?
[Darkover] I would say a hero is someone who does the right thing to the best of his ability, whether he or she wants to or not, whether it is convenient or not, easy or not
[Silmarien] I love Gil-galad….
[Gondhir] ah, yes
[Gondhir] the chivalrous fish
[miriel] evening!
[miriel] have we started?
[Darkover] Hi, Miriel!
[Puma] hej miriel
[Goldberry] Miriel!
[Darkover] We’re trying to, Miriel
[Demosthenes] Dictionary.com says that it’s a person of distinguished courage or ability, admired for brave deeds and noble qualities.
[Puma] this is a ripe topic…we are going to go crazy with it
[ChristineGolden] root word: demi-god from the Greek.
[Darkover] It may be immodest of me to say so, but I think my definition is better
[Demosthenes] Mmmm .. in greek a hero is literally a protector, or a defender.
[Erkenbrand] when thinking about what a hero is, I am reminded by Sam at the end of the Two Towers (film), someone who had a chance of turning back but didn’t.
[ChristineGolden] derivatives: protector and defender.
[Darkover] Right, Erkenbrand. Doing the right thing, regardless.
[Puma] and bravery might be internal….that no other being can see.the battle in with one self
[Darkover] well put, Puma
[Puma] and Erkenbrand.the movie was false.there was no chance sam or frodo would turn back.ever
[Darkover] because it doesn’t make a person any less brave, if the bravery isn’t obvious
[Demosthenes] It’s more than not showing fear though.
[Puma] showing fear.and acting.could be considered more heroic
[Darkover] actually, IMO, it isn’t necessarily bad to show fear, provided you’re still doing the right thing
[Darkover] it would depend on the circumstances, I suppose
[ChristineGolden] I’d think that would be courage, an element of heroism, but not heroism itself.
[Puma] and all members of the fellowship and others also.have their heroic moments…yet were all heros?.that is a good topic
[Erewen] You cannot be truly brave with fear
[Katya] Sam and Frodo did have the option to turn back. They could have made that choice but didn’t. For the right cause. That’s a hero. 😛
[Demosthenes] True. When we talk about fearless people, they usually still fear (danger, or failure or whatever) yet still act regardless.
[Darkover] Agreed, Chris. Courage is a necessity for a hero, but it isn’t the whole story
[Puma] Katya that choice was in rivendell
[Katya] I disagree. Having fear and facing it down and still doing the right thing makes one more of a hero.
[miriel] I agree, you are not heroic unless you are scared of doing the thing that needs to be done. If you are not scared, you are either not doing a heroic thing, or foolhardy.
[ChristineGolden] I would say that the key element to heroism is integrity.
[Demosthenes] Must heroes succeed?
[Darkover] Arguably, Puma, all the Fellowship were heroes, to a greater or lesser degree
[Puma] possibly darkover.its a good topic in itself
[Erewen] I mean without fear
[miriel] the ones that fail are forgotten, and never entiteled heroes, I guess
[Puma] if you have no fear……how can you be a hero?
[Erkenbrand] a hero doesn’t have to succeed, eg it was heroic of Boromir to try to save Merry and Pippin, yet he failed
[ChristineGolden] In what, Demosthenes? Succeed as in, not to succumb, or to win?
[Darkover] It would certainly be important if heroes succeeded, Demosthenes, but even if they fail, I’m not sure that would make them less heroic.
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: I was thinking “winning”. And Darkover’s point is probably a good one.
[Puma] Boromir was heroic.he save the whole fellowship
[Darkover] Thank you, Demosthenes
[miriel] hmm good point Erkenbrand
[Darkover] I would argue that Boromir was still heroic, and I’m not sure he did fail
[miriel] he was special in the sense that people were aware of what he tried to do
[Puma] i dont think he did fail Darkover
[Darkover] He succeeded in redeeming himself, as Gandalf observed later
[Erewen] The soldiers who died in the world wars, many of their names are forgotten or lost, that does not mean they are not heroes or make their sacrifice any less
[Demosthenes] Does a single act make a hero? And can one heroic act “redeem” someone who is flawed?
[Puma] he was the point.that set all the others on the mission that did work
[Darkover] I would say “Yes” to both your questions, Demosthenes
[Erewen] depends on the act I think
[ChristineGolden] Imo, Tolkien revealed different facets of heroism in all of the Fellowship.
* Katya nods in agreement to Dems.
[Darkover] depending on circumstances–let me qualify that
[Puma] i agree Christine!!!!
[Darkover] Good observation, Chris, I agree
[miriel] I would also say yes to dems question
[ChristineGolden] If a fireman runs into a burning building and saves a child, isn’t he a hero, Demosthenes? Even if it is only one act?
[Puma] well……was gollum a hero….in his own mind……he did keep the ring from sauron…..and save everyone in the end
[Darkover] Another thought: are there degrees of heroism?
[ChristineGolden] Of course.
[lunarising] yes Darkover I think there are
[Puma] take gollums pt of view
[Darkover] Well, puma, anyone can be a hero in his own mind. And Gollum wanted the Ring for himself, rather than nobly wanting to keep it from Sauron
[Demosthenes] Darkover: if one puts one self in peril, then it’s 100% every time.
[Erkenbrand] How would you define the different degrees?
[Darkover] Hard to argue with that statement, Demosthenes
[Darkover] Erkenbrand, I was thinking about Chris’ remark that a single act can be heroic
[Puma] is nobility needed to be a hero?
[ChristineGolden] I would say that a critical piece, Erkenbrand, would be the personal danger to oneself – and not only physical.
[Demosthenes] I guess that … you could argue that the amount of heroism is proportional to the price of failure?
[Darkover] and of course, it can be, but how about long, steady endurance, like Frodo and Sam’s?
[Darkover] Is that greater or lesser? Or is this an empty consideration?
[Demosthenes] The higher the (personal) price, the more heroic the act.
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I disagree with that, Demosthenes.
[Demosthenes] whyso?
[Darkover] Yes, Chris, why?
[Puma] even a small act can have huge import
[ChristineGolden] Were those who died in the Charge of the Light Brigade less heroic than those who stormed the beaches of Normandy?
[Demosthenes] puma: a hurricane triggered by butterfly wings?
[Darkover] That would make it important, Puma, but not necessarily more heroic
[Puma] you got it Demz!!!!!!!
[ChristineGolden] If anything, I’d say the former were braver because they faced both failure and death, but did it anyway.
[Demosthenes] christine: i meant the personal price. not the collective price.
[ChristineGolden] I did, too.
[Demosthenes] So, those examples are equally heroic because they each put their lives on the line.
[Darkover] How much would it matter what a person was being heroic about, do you think?
[Puma] well….actually.for bilbo……it would have been safer to kill gollum.yet he did not…..there was no cost to himself right away…..yet his act of not killing saved the world…..
[Puma] a small act
[Darkover] Or would it matter much at all?
[ChristineGolden] Yes, in order to do the right thing, nevermind the odds of success.
[lunarising] can one still be a hero without risking life
[Demosthenes] puma: that brings me to another point – selflessness.
[Erkenbrand] it doesn’t matter what they are being heroic about
[ChristineGolden] I think it does, Darkover.
[Darkover] True, Puma, but in order to argue how heroic something is, wouldn’t the person committing the act have to understand how important it was?
[Katya] True selflessness is the key IMO.
[Demosthenes] or altruism, if you will.
[Demosthenes] Is that necessary a thing?
[Puma] i dont know Darkover.that is what this discourse is about
[Erewen] Frodo realising he would die on the quest but continuing anyway
[Darkover] Bilbo did the right thing, especially as it turned out, but he was hardly aware of the significance it would have.
[Demosthenes] Could, say, a mercenary be heroic?
[ChristineGolden] I’d have to say that’s an iffy one, Demosthenes.
[Darkover] I would say so. A mercenary risks his life, too
[Katya] Depending on the situation yes. (heroci mercenary)
[Puma] but doing the “right” thing in itself can be heroic.even when you dont know the end
[Darkover] It may not be as admirable, though
[Erkenbrand] Yes, a mercenary can still be heroic, depending on the cricumstances
[Erewen] Circumstance as well as the act is important then
[Puma] oh.this is a fun discourse…..i can take any side
[Demosthenes] Do we have to admire a hero?
[Puma] i dont think so Demz
[Puma] the shire never did admire Frodo
[lunarising] depends on which side you’re on
[ChristineGolden] Well, I don’t admire Turin, but is he a hero?
[Erkenbrand] You don’t have to, yet I can’t think of an un-admirable hero?
[Darkover] *Have* to? Maybe not. But I think most fair-minded people would have to agree on the heroism of someone’s actions, in order for it to be considered heroic.
[Puma] why?
[Demosthenes] I guess that’s the anti-hero christine?
* Katya is still thinking on the Gollum situation.
[ChristineGolden] Perhaps you can admire someone’s heroic act, but not the person himself?
[Puma] Golum could be a topic for a HoF by himself katya
[Goldberry] LC!
[Anno] I’ve heard discussions about Gollum being considered a hero, I missed the beginning of this chat but who here agrres with this?
[Darkover] Well, I certainly don’t want to offend anyone or hurt feelings by offering this as an example, but it can be the old “is he a terrorist or a freedom fighter” argument
[Darkover] I would not consider Gollum a hero, Anno
[Darkover] or a terrorist a freedom fighter, just for the record
[Erkenbrand] I agree that he is a hero, he puts his life on the line trying to get Frodo to mordor
[ChristineGolden] No, right is right and wrong isn’t, Demosthenes, no matter the excuse.
[Puma] and after yrs….i am still not sure about gollum.i can argue either way
[Erewen] I see Smeagol as a hero and Gollum as a villian
[Darkover] But Erkenbrand, don’t you think his motives have something to do with that?
[Demosthenes] I think he battles heroically with his nature. But I’m not sure that makes him a hero. I’m not even sure he’s an anti-hero.
[Gandalf_the_Green] Ello all
[Darkover] Gollum wasn’t trying to do the right thing. He was trying to keep the Precious away from the Dark Lord, until he himself, Gollum, could get his hands on it again
[Goldberry] Hi Gandalf_the_green
[ChristineGolden] Gollum is definitely a bad one, beyond redemption.
[Darkover] Hi, Gandalf_the_green
[Erkenbrand] he has the wrong motive, yes
[Demosthenes] He is not selfless?
[Puma] yet he almost did repent Christine.jrr said the saddest moment in lotr
[Demosthenes] Is that why?
[Darkover] As Gandalf said, Gollum had a part to play before the end, but IMO, doesn’t make him a hero
[lunarising] I think so – Gollum is definitely not selfless
[ChristineGolden] “Almost” being the important word, Puma.a
[Darkover] He definitely was not selfless
[Erewen] I think at one point Gollum could have been saved but in the end the grip of the ring was too strong
[Puma] did gandalf go to orodruin with 3 eagles….in case gollum was still alive?
[Darkover] Yes, it was sad. But “almost” doing the right thing isn’t the same as doing the right thing
* Katya nods to Erewen.
[ChristineGolden] You can’t say that everyone in LotR is a hero or the term becomes meaningless.
* Katya cries.
[Puma] do you have to have a good motive to be heroic ?
[Darkover] I don’t believe everyone in LotR was a hero, Chris, but there was certainly a lot of bravery to go around
[Katya] Yes….
[ChristineGolden] I think a lot of heroism is reflexive, Puma.
[Erkenbrand] no, I don’t think so Puma
[Darkover] and IMO, everyone in the Fellowship was heroic to some degree
[Darkover] I think it helps to have a good motive, Puma
[ChristineGolden] Yes, but being brave isn’t always the same as being heroic, Darkover.
[Erewen] Is it a case of everyone who is a hero is brave but not everyone who is brave is a hero
[Anno] The perhaps Frodo in the end was also not a hero…well…in many ways he is but …
[Darkover] True. I suppose a person can be brave without being heroic, but he can’t be heroic without being brave
[Puma] a hero might not be brave at all
[Darkover] How could he not be, Puma?
[Anno] I agree
[Katya] But then again I’m not sure with Smeagol. He almost made the right choice but he DIDN’T and the fact remains the fact.
* Katya is so very saddened by this.
[ChristineGolden] I think a hero has to overcome some obstacle, do something significant, that sets him apart.
[Darkover] Right, Katya
[Goldberry] Like Denethor, brave maybe, but not a hero
[Demosthenes] Well, if we agree that Tolkien perceived Sam as the chief hero of LOTR, then how does Gollum fail to match that standard?
[Darkover] which frequently means overcoming his fears, Chris
[Goldberry] IMO, anyway
[Puma] that is the mythological definition Christine
[Darkover] Are you serious, Demosthenes?
[Puma] Aragorn fits that
[Darkover] How can you compare Gollum with Sam?
[ChristineGolden] Well, we are discussing a mythology, Puma.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: it might be a good way to boil down essential heroic qualities.
[Darkover] True. Sorry
[Katya] Smeagol/Gollum does not match because he was unable to finally make the right choice.
[Puma] yes.but lotr is also very 20th century in certain parts
[Darkover] Gollum was selfish. Sam was not
* Katya loves when Dems does the devil’s advocate angles.
[Erewen] Sam was constant, whereas Gollum was- partly because of the ring- always changing, fighting with himself
[Darkover] Sam was loyal. Gollum did things entirely for his own motives.
[Demosthenes] But we discussed that heroism doesn’t always require selflessness (although it helps).
[Demosthenes] So it must be more than that.
[Puma] but even after almost 500 yrs.gollum had a little bit of “good” left in him…..would anyone else with the ring have held out that long?
[ChristineGolden] Integrity, inner courage, conviction, a willingness to fight for one’s beliefs and for good.
[Darkover] Gollum, perhaps most of all, didn’t care about doing the right thing. He cared about getting his Precious back.
[lunarising] It could be argued that Sam’s motivation was loyalty to Frodo at any cost
[Erewen] Must be the hobbit in him
[Darkover] Sam cared about doing the right thing.
[Darkover] True, lunarising…
[Anno] Is it only becasue Frodo failed at the end we can’t completely call him a hero? I mean if Sam had carried the ring would he not have given in? Was it only becasue he didn’t have it he was able to be strong for Frodo?
[Puma] yet it was due to sam.that gollum did not repent……so sam did make wrong choices at times
[Darkover] That’s a good point, Anno. Sam was devoted to Frodo, which helped him, Sam, do the right thing
[Erewen] No one is perfect, which is important
[ChristineGolden] I do call Frodo a hero, Anno. Just because he failed to complete his task doesn’t make him less heroic, only more ‘human.’
[Erkenbrand] Was Frodo not heroic for carrying the ring that far Anno
[lunarising] I don’t think a hero is going to be faultless all of the time
[Darkover] anyone can make wrong choices, Puma, but to be a hero, he must at least try to do the right thing
[Demosthenes] Does Gollum ever take on impossible odds for the sake of Frodo? I can think of at least two instances where Sam does so.
[Darkover] nothing really comes to mind, Demosthenes
* Puma is having fun arguing for its own sake
[Anno] No I don’t mean he wasn’t a hero at all, I totally agree Chistenw Golden
[Goldberry] lol Puma
[Demosthenes] Sam fights Shelob for Frodo.
[Puma] easy to take any side in this topic
[Darkover] I think that’s a big part of why many of us are here, Puma 😉
[Anno] I’m just saying not “completely” a hero.
[Erewen] Gollum does recognise that the ring must not go to Sauron but his motivation for that is questionable
[lunarising] none that I can think of and if he did he was probably motivated by his own intentions
[Darkover] and rescues Frodo from his orc captors
[Demosthenes] Sam also battles through Cirith ungol.
[Demosthenes] yes
[ChristineGolden] Perhaps the members of the Fellowship were meant to show different facets of heroism?
[Puma] yes Christine
[Darkover] That is possible, Chris
[ChristineGolden] Frodo is certainly not a hero if defined by Aragorn.
[ChristineGolden] if the term is defined…
[Demosthenes] ChristineGolden: yes i tend to believe so.
[Anno] Would anyone have been able to resist the ring all the way into Mordor? Even Gandalf and Aragorn were afraid of having it…
[Erewen] But what apects are shown by different characters
[Puma] but Aragorn himself regared Frodo as the greater hero
[Puma] regarded
[Puma] he said so
[Puma] and sam
[ChristineGolden] Well, you have (book) Aragorn who is the classic medieval hero.
[Erkenbrand] I think that they were both equally heroic but in different ways.
[Erewen] What is with hobbits and being able to resist evil? Pippin and the palantir, Frodo and Sam and the ring
[ChristineGolden] You have Frodo who is heroic in the martyrdom sense.
[ChristineGolden] And it sure took a set for Merry to stand on the fields outside Gondor and stab the Nazgul.
[Darkover] Chris mentioned that Aragorn is the classic medieval hero, and she is right. But in order to be truly heroic, not just brave, must a person have other, even more sublime, qualities?
[Puma] Hobbit resisting evil in lotr is due to their not ever seeking power
[ChristineGolden] I still say integrity is a core element.
[Darkover] I mean, it must be more difficult to do the right thing for abstract motives
[Demosthenes] Is that what defines Frodo’s heroism?
[ChristineGolden] Integrity comes from the Greek, whole, as in the sum is greater than its parts.
[Puma] Aragorn as Thorongil.sailed down to umbar……and did battle there…he risked a whole future for a battle that had not a great impact
[Darkover] Sam acted as he did for love of Frodo. Lots of people in LotR act as they do for reasons of love or devotion to another. But doing the right thing, at least as you understand it, for a lot of people you don’t know, or an abstract principle, must be even harder.
[Puma] is that heroic….risking others
[marco] hello all
[Puma] marcoreus
[Darkover] Hi, marco
[ChristineGolden] I think it could be, Puma.
[Goldberry] Hi marco
[Puma] you are in HoF
[ChristineGolden] Hiya, marco. 😉
[marco] hi puma and everyone else 🙂
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Frodo risks all to save an awful lot of people he doesn’t even know. He does say to Gandalf that he wants to see the shire saved, iirc.
[Jullingen] Hi 🙂
[Goldberry] HI Jullingen
[Demosthenes] At that point I think he’s questioning why he has to do it.
[Darkover] That’s right, Demosthenes. And does it make him even more noble for doing so? I’d say yes.
[ChristineGolden] When Theoden commands his army to charge, he is putting his men at risk, and yet, his actions are heroic.
[Puma] no choice then
[Erkenbrand] But Théoden is also putting himself at risk
[Darkover] I would argue that Denethor too was heroic, resisting Mordor and Sauron for all those years
[Puma] aragorn had been raised to look at a big picture
[ChristineGolden] Of course he had a choice. He could have stayed at Helm’s Deep.
[Darkover] And Aragorn is tremendously heroic, drawing the might of Mordor just to save Frodo and Sam and their quest
[Anno] I agree with you guys, the bigger picture is what needs to be looked at sometimes.
[Puma] i meant when he was there at pelennor
[Demosthenes] puma: theoden could have stayed home. but then … the battle would have come to him. He goes to help Gondor and risks himself and his people, but there’s an element of personal necessity to the action too.
[ChristineGolden] Actually, I’ve always seen Denethor as the mirror image of Theoden, Darkoveer.
[Erkenbrand] If someone forces other people to risk themselves without risking himself then that would not be heroic
[Puma] oh. i agree Demz…….sometimes its fun posing questions
[Darkover] I couldn’t resist bringing him up, Chris, because most fans dislike Denethor, but he had his merits, too, IMO
[ChristineGolden] I’d agree with that, Erkenbrand.
[Demosthenes] Is Theoden “merely” brave?
[Puma] i agree with you Darkover.most overlok Denethor
[Darkover] thanks, Puma
[Puma] Denethor was a very great man
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure that I’d consider Theoden to be a hero, Demosthenes, but I think he encompasses more than bravery.
[Puma] had a fatal flaw…….but dont most of us
[ChristineGolden] Honor is very important to him, for example.
[Demosthenes] I think Denethor was brave. Foolish as well. Not necessarily heroic.
[Darkover] Theoden is brave, and above, Demosthenes, for he honors the old alliance between Rohan and Gondor, when he might have just cared for his own borders and people only
[Anno] I think Theoden became brave and heroic when he knew he had to be.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: when he could have thrown in with Saruman, for example?
[Darkover] Hmm…not at the very end, certainly, Demosthenes. But this is kind of the reverse of that earlier question
[Puma] this convo will have a lot of reversals
[Darkover] does one noble act make a person heroic? Well, does one bad–even really bad–act negate all the good a person has done before?
[Puma] excellent question Darkover
[Darkover] Thank you, Puma
[Erkenbrand] the good does not wipe out the bad, nor the bad wipe out the good
[Goldberry] That makes me think of turin, Darkover
[ChristineGolden] I’d think that would depend on the act, Darkover.
[Puma] but people often overlook Denethor and Boromir due to single acts…..
[Darkover] I think we sometimes have to weigh the merits of things and of people, Erkenbrand
[Darkover] People are human, after all, which means fallible
[ChristineGolden] perhaps because those single acts reveal inner fatal flaws, Puma.
[Darkover] Agreed, Chris, we would have to consider what the act was. Also how successful or not, and what a person’s motives were.
[Anno] The hearts of men are easily corrupted…
[Goldberry] Turin tried to help people, but failed
[Puma] all fellowship members..have their less than heroic moments
[Demosthenes] Does Boromir get more credit because his heroic acts cost him his life?
[Goldberry] so was he a hero or not?
[Demosthenes] If he had survived, would he have been regarded in a less favourable light?
[Darkover] I would say Boromir was a hero
[Goldberry] probably Dems
[ChristineGolden] Everybody fails at some time: what counts is standing up for the right when it matters.
[Darkover] Not by me. He did his best, which counts for a lot IMO
[Darkover] Well put, Chris!
[ChristineGolden] 🙂
[Demosthenes] Mmmm. Boromir did do his best. And he picked himself up after his will was broken too.
[Erkenbrand] I feel that it was not entirely Boromir’s fault for being corrupted by the ring
[Demosthenes] Now that’s an important distinction from a) Gollum b) Denethor.
[Puma] another direction….bombadil saves hobbits in old forest…..yet was that heroic?
[Demosthenes] Once those two are broken, they remain broken.
[Darkover] That’s what I mean, we should weigh the different factors involved
[ChristineGolden] Boromir was sorely tested and the Ring used his love for Gondor against him. I can’t fault him for that, not when he so strongly defended the hobbits when push met shove.
[Demosthenes] Boromir has a comeback.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t consider it to be a comeback, Demosthenes, so much as an overcoming.
[Darkover] Puma, I wouldn’t say old Tom was heroic, because saving the hobbits was so easy for him, it didn’t cost him anything
[Erewen] Anyone can fall but picking yourself off the ground and carrying on regardless, that is true strength
[Erkenbrand] also if Boromir did take the ring, then that would be classed as heroism in Gondor
[Anno] Boromir was human and was just weak enough to fall. But overall yes, I think he was a hero. Especially at the end and before the war of the ring.
[Darkover] Right. To all these Boromir comments
[Demosthenes] Sam also faces temptation and breaks through that.
[Puma] boromir would be a good HoF topic
[Darkover] Except, Erkenbrand, Denethor would have considered Boromir taking the Ring to be good, but in the long run, no one else would have
[Goldberry] Areed, Puma 🙂
[ChristineGolden] When his oath mattered, Boromir fulfilled it at the price of his own life. That is a hero to me, not a fallen almost wannabe.
[Goldberry] *agreed
[Darkover] *Very* well put, Chris
[Demosthenes] christine: and Denethor was unable or unwiling to surrender the stewardship. whereas boromir may have.
[Erkenbrand] very true ChristineGolden
[Anno] Yes.
[Erewen] Everyone faces temptation in some form another, even if it is meerly the temptation to home and pretend all if fine
[Puma] in a sense then Boromir was quite modern.a flawed hero
[ChristineGolden] And he did it for no personal gain, but to protect and defend others. Is that not the very definition of hero?
[Demosthenes] For all Denethor’s fine words, it was an act beyond him.
[Darkover] Agreed, Chris
[ChristineGolden] I’d say the opposite, Puma, that Boromir was your classical hero.
[Erkenbrand] What about if to protect and defend one set of people will harm another set of people? Is that still heroic
[Puma] perhaps 1 of boromirs finast hrs was on caradhras….he was the one who really saved tham all then
[Darkover] But that required just physical strength, Puma, not a lot of strength of will, or much determination to do right, regardless of his own desires
[Puma] yet he was in charge than
[Darkover] Erkenbrand, I would say it probably depends on who you are defending, and why, and who you are hurting, and why
[Puma] both gandalf and aragorn let him be
[ChristineGolden] Yes, I think character is more important than individual acts, and Boromir displayed a strong character.
[Demosthenes] If Boromir reveals one aspect of heroism — the ability to stick to one’s word regardless of cost — is Faramir a flipside? The ability to disregard a chain of command when the outcome would be terrible?
[ChristineGolden] Too general for me to respond, Erkenbrand.
[Erkenbrand] Darkover: the people you defend will call you heroic and the people it harms will say it was evil? so is it still heroic overall
[ChristineGolden] That’s a good thought, Demosthenes, esp since Tolkien seemed to develop so many mirror-image characters.
[Demosthenes] Mmmm.
[Goldberry] Faramir sticks to his word, his word to himself that he will do the right thing
[Darkover] Maybe the final determination would be made by third-party opinions, Erkenbrand
[Darkover] Faramir showed moral courage
[ChristineGolden] I would have to know what they were being defended against before I could answer.
[Puma] was glorfindel a hero.after the battle of fornost…..when he rode right at wk…..and chased him away?
[Demosthenes] Darkover: to what extent is that an essential quality of being heroic?
[Goldberry] I’d say Glorfindel was a hero
[Puma] and Beregond broke his word as a guard of the citadel…yet saved Faramir
[Anno] Yes, so was Faramir in my opinion.
[Demosthenes] I’m not too keen to go outside LOTR btw. we have a huge canvas already.
[ChristineGolden] Imo, it would be a core part of being heroic.
[Puma] so you can break your word and be a hero
[Darkover] I’m trying to say that a hero has to at least try to do the right thing–and there has to be at least some general agreement as to what the “right” thing consists of.
[Demosthenes] puma: true. they are very similar in that sense.
[Darkover] “Good and evil are not one thing among Men, and another among Elves and Dwarves”
[ChristineGolden] I agree completely, Darkover.
[Puma] great quote
[Demosthenes] Darkover: Tolkien does seem to indicate that “right” is not always “following orders”.
[Darkover] Thank you both
[Puma] 6x he does Demz
[ChristineGolden] I think we’ve overlooked one point: what would Tolkien consider to be heroism?
[Darkover] Quite right, Demosthenes, and Faramir is kind of the classic example of that
[Anno] That is true.
[Demosthenes] christine: well, if Sam is the chief hero, then it must be something that Sam has.
[Goldberry] Is a hero someone who trusts His/her own judgement then?
[Demosthenes] I would argue.
[Erewen] Then again what is evil, apart from Sauron, the Haradrim and Easterling they were not necessarily evil. Was their sacrifice for their countries any less that of the Gondorians or the Rohirrim
[Anno] Not always Goldberry
[ChristineGolden] the altruistic willingness to sacrifice himself for Frodo and the Quest.
[Puma] excellent Erewen!!!!
[Demosthenes] erewen: that is true, especially if those people were deceived.
[Demosthenes] Which sam for one suspect they were.
[Demosthenes] suspects*
[Goldberry] in certain cases I suppose, Anno
[ChristineGolden] They were not defending their countries, Erewen; they were invading someone else’s.
[Puma] and later aragorn invaded theiirs
[Mr_Bultitude] Gandy!
[Erewen] The Haradrim, they lived in desert lands, hadn’t Sauron promised them the fertile land of Gondor. Some of them might have thought they were merely giving future generations a better chance.
[Goldberry] They might have thought they were defending their country Christine
[ChristineGolden] Yeah, just like Russia invaded Germany after kicking the Nazis out.
[marco] Russia!
[ChristineGolden] You can’t start a war, then whine when it ends up in your own front yard.
* Mr_Bultitude is now known as Faramir_Oakenshield
[Darkover] I heartily agree, Chris
[Puma] but to the haradrim and easterlings start…..gondor had invaded them b4
[Faramir_Oakenshield] eowynx!
[Puma] but did
[ChristineGolden] and those wars were ended.
[Puma] in whose mind
[Erewen] I think it comes back to the Freedom fighter/terrorist thing again. It’s all about perspective
[Erkenbrand] “he wondered if he [the southron] was truly evil at heart… and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace” of herbs and stewed rabbit
[Demosthenes] christine: i’m not sure you answered your own question. What did Tolkien perceive as heroism?
[owl] hey all
[ChristineGolden] I don’t at all, Erkenbrand. I think aggression counts.
[Katya] Hello Owl.
[Goldberry] hi owl
[Darkover] Well, it is about right and wrong too, Erewen. I offered that as an argument people sometimes make. Didn’t say that I agreed with it.
[Darkover] Hi, owl
[owl] Hi Katya and Goldberry and Darkover
[Puma] so then Hyarmendecil II was never herioc christine?
[Erewen] Was Tolkein influenced by his experience in the trenches in regards to what is heroism
[Katya] I’d say yes.
[Erkenbrand] Definitely
[Puma] of course
[Darkover] I think Tolkien regarded heroism as a respect for what is right, the determination to do what is right even at great personal cost, loyalty, integrity, steadfastness, and courage
[Erewen] How though
[Demosthenes] Erewen: i think that shows in Faramir and Beregond.
[ChristineGolden] Now, Puma, you know I’m not that familiar with the Numenoreans.
[Demosthenes] And in sam.
[Puma] that is Gondor Christine
[Demosthenes] Faithfulness without being rigid.
[Puma] crushed the haradrim
[Anno] I that that is true Darkover.
[owl] sounds right, Darkover
[ChristineGolden] I would add “a sense of personal honor,” Darkover, but that’s good.
[Darkover] Thank you all
[Puma] was Beregond loyal to his lord Denethor?
[ChristineGolden] Ok, I’m not that familiar with the line of kings other than the major ones.
[Goldberry] up to a point
[Erkenbrand] yes and no
[Demosthenes] puma: i think he tried to be.
[Darkover] Arguably, he was, Puma, as it could be said he realized Denethor was not in his right mind
[Demosthenes] and then went “this is dumb”
[Katya] One can be loyal to one’s leader, but when a leader is making bad choices it is one’s duty to do the right thing.
[Eowynx] hey! Faramir_oakenshield 😀
[Goldberry] lol Dems
[ChristineGolden] Or perhaps he felt his first loyalty was to Faramir?
[Darkover] More importantly, he was loyal to Faramir, and to doing the right thing–again, at great personal cost
[Erewen] I think he was loyal to Gondor, not necessarily to the people in charge
[Erkenbrand] beregond tried to follow Denethor’s orders up to point that he knew that they were wrong
[Puma] Like Christine said earlier….there are different aspects to heroism
[Darkover] Which I think is the point Pippin tried to make to Beregond, Katya
[Puma] jrr showed different aspects
[Demosthenes] There’s a lot of parallels that one can draw between Denethor and mad generals sacrificing their soldiers. Of course, one can make too much of that too.
[Puma] and this is too big a topic for just 1 week
[Erewen] Tolkein never liked allegory
[Puma] if we brought in sil.we could go forever
[Puma] but jrr liked applicability
[Katya] PLEASE bring in Silm there’s NEVER enough Silm.
[Darkover] Well, I don’t want to do that. I have to eat sometime. 😉
[Demosthenes] No, but I wasn’t saying intent.
[ChristineGolden] Well, we could break it down into the different major characters, Puma, perhaps in pairs like a compare and contrast thing.
[Goldberry] *please*
[Katya] Fair enough hehe.
[Goldberry] lol
[Puma] yes Christine
[Katya] WB.
[Erkenbrand] I think that we can go on for days with just LotR
[Puma] yes
[Puma] this is a huge topic
[Anno] I wonder how long it would take to do discussions on each chapter.
[Puma] was eomers war lust on Pelennor being a hero?
[Puma] we do that all the time anno
[Anno] Really? That’s awesome
[Erkenbrand] He was driven into insensibility by grief
[Puma] every other week
[ChristineGolden] not in my opinion, Puma, other than a faithful lieutenant doing his job.
[Puma] we have been going thru lotr
[Darkover] I think so. If you’re doing the right thing, there is no rule that says you can’t do it for your own reasons, as well.
[Goldberry] Agreed, Erkenbrand
[Demosthenes] I don’t think so. He was beserk. Reckless of self.
[Puma] it can be argued both ways……i think jrr intended that
[Erkenbrand] He wasn’t trying to be heroic but that doesn’t stop the actions from being heroic
[Demosthenes] Do you think he despaired at that point?
[Erewen] Mad with grief and wanting revenge
[Darkover] I think he was furious at that point, not despairing, Demosthenes
[ChristineGolden] Does a hero fail when he despairs?
[ChristineGolden] I think in Tolkien’s world, he would.
[Puma] that was Denethors failure Chrsitine
[Darkover] Probably, Chris. Because if he despairs, he stops trying, and if he stops trying to do right, he stops being heroic.
[Demosthenes] Yes I was just wondering that. Denethor’s defining characteristic that makes him unheroic i think is that he despairs.
[Puma] and at same exact moment.theoden dies
[Demosthenes] Sarauman surrenders through the same. and through overweening pride.
[ChristineGolden] Well, I was just thinking of Tolkien’s roman catholicism – despair is the one unforgivable sin.
[Puma] yes
[Erewen] Despair is being utterly without hope and if you are without hope you have failed I think
[Demosthenes] Do Frodo and sam always retain hope?
[Puma] did not aragorn despair for a bit of time…..after boromir was killed at parth galen
[Darkover] Yes, Demosthenes, because they continue to hope in each other, if nothiing else.
[Erewen] Maybe not hope for themselves but for the others I think
[Puma] jrr wrote many complexities
[Erkenbrand] i think that everyone in the fellowship despairs at some point (Black gate)
[Darkover] He blamed himself, Puma, but I don’t believe he despaired.
[ChristineGolden] I’m not sure if they always retain hope, but they don’t despair and quit. Stumbling isn’t the same as falling and refusing to try again.
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i think that’s a good answer. though maybe sam has a moment when he thinks Frodo is dead.
[Anno] I agree with that
[Darkover] Even then, Demosthenes, he was momentarily tempted to commit suicide, but he did not.
[Darkover] So, not completely despairing
[Demosthenes] In that sense, his attack on shelob is similar to Eomer’s?
[Puma] yes
[Darkover] Yes, I think so
[Erkenbrand] another aspect of heroism is the ability to carry on through despair
[Katya] Good point Erkenbrand.
[Darkover] Not quite despair, Erkenbrand. Say, the ability to carry on even when you may not see the point, or may not at all still want to go on.
[Anno] Yes Erkenbrand!
[Puma] what about a minor character.bergil..was he a hero for staying in minas tirith.when almost all young people had left?
[ChristineGolden] No, I don’t think Sam was overtaken by some blood lust, but he suddenly found that hobbitty-ness inside him and turned into a warrior.
[Darkover] lol, Chris
[ChristineGolden] Kind of like a mother who, without stopping to think, leaps into traffic to save her child.
[Erewen] The protective instinct
[ChristineGolden] Or those people who find the strength without thinking to life a car off somebody.
[Puma] or the single person who picks up a car.when some1 is trapped under it
[Puma] lol gmta
[Demosthenes] Yeah, agreed.
[Demosthenes] We haven’t touched on Eowyn yet either i think.
[Puma] Demz…..with this topic you are just have to say stop at one point.cause it will never end on its own
[ChristineGolden] Oh, I was just thinking of her.
[ChristineGolden] lol
[Goldberry] lol
[Demosthenes] puma: i think we are winding down. 🙂
[Darkover] She was close to despair, but if she had truly despaired, she would just have committed suicide.
[Puma] what about fattly bolger…..was he a hero?
[Darkover] Whereas, she wante to go out with a bang, and take her country’s enemies with her.
[Puma] fatty
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i was thinking of the similarities to Eomer.
[ChristineGolden] In his own, small, hobbity way, Puma.
[Anno] Ohh what about Arwen? She never despaired when she very well could have and was close.
[Puma] but is that being a hero Darkover?
[Goldberry] He was brave for a hobbit Puma
[Erkenbrand] Eowyn dreamed of heroism, but the realised in the houses of healing that she didn’t need to fight to be a hero
[Darkover] Yes, Puma, because it is better than just giving up completely.
[Darkover] And because Eowyn was still thinking of others even at what was supposed to be her end.
[Puma] excellent Erkenbrand!!!!!
[Demosthenes] Erkenbrand: Frodo realises similar things.
[Katya] I think I will take my leave now. By all.
[ChristineGolden] I think Eowyn was more frustrated than despairing, like the bit about a bird beating its wings against a cage.
[Goldberry] well said, erkenbrand
[Darkover] Well, sometimes you do need to fight to be a hero, but at least Eowyn didn’t have to do so any longer.
[Erewen] I don’t think I can stay awake much longer, it’s 12:25 at night and I want to London today-I live near Manchester, goodbye
[ChristineGolden] Does anyone think Arwen was a heroine?
[Puma] in a way yes
[Puma] not in the battle sense though
[Erkenbrand] yes, she sacrificed imortality
[Demosthenes] She makes an enormous sacrifice.
[ChristineGolden] But it isn’t for others.
[Demosthenes] A leap into the unknown.
[Darkover] No, I don’t think Arwen was a heroine
[Anno] Yes, I do ChristineGolden
[Demosthenes] No. There’s a payoff.
[ChristineGolden] I don’t.
[Puma] as some1 said earlier…..she never gives up hope
[Darkover] Sorry, but I don’t. She doesn’t do anything for others, or for a higher purpose
[Darkover] Nor does she take any personal risks.
[ChristineGolden] But she does nothing other than wait for her dreams to come true.
[Demosthenes] she never resiles from her choice though. which is brave.
[Puma] she watched over aragorn in her thoughts……we never do grasp how important that was
[Erkenbrand] also, she gives up her place to frodo
[Darkover] It was important to Aragorn. But even then, hardly heroic, puma
[Puma] no Erkenbrand
[Demosthenes] Erkenbrand: that’s a selfless act, but not necessarily a heroic one.
[ChristineGolden] yes.
[Darkover] I’m not sure that was exactly hers to give, Erkenbrand. Anyway, it wasn’t heroic.
[Puma] she could not give her free pass to another
[ChristineGolden] Besides, it’s not like she planned on using her spot anyway.
[Darkover] lol, Chris
[Demosthenes] I think that Arwen is both brave and selfless, but not heroic.
[Goldberry] lol
[Darkover] I guess I’m a sourpuss, because I don’t see her as being particularly selfless
[ChristineGolden] Is it heroic that someone else sits in a bus seat I’m not using because I preferred to drive?
[Puma] well..with arwen we never do know.did she war as her brothers and grandparents did
[Darkover] or brave, for that matter. She gave up her immortality because she didn’t completely realize what she was getting into, IMO
[ChristineGolden] probably not, considering the fate of her mother, Puma.
[Darkover] Chris, you are in fine form tonight!
[Demosthenes] Darkover: but Frodo didn’t realise what he was getting into.
[Demosthenes] Nor Merry nor Pippin.
[Puma] we just dont know Christine
[Anno] I think she is heroic in a way becasue not only did she give up herself and basically her life but she returned after leaving Rivendell
[Demosthenes] But they are all brave, and all heroic even.
[Anno] When she thought there may still be hope.
[Darkover] Not completely, but he learned in a hurry, Demosthenes, and still stuck with it. Arwen didn’t figure it out until the very end, when it was too late to do otherwise, anyway.
[Erkenbrand] what about Galadriel?
[ChristineGolden] I seriously doubt that Elrond would have risked Arwen after his wife was raped and killed by orcs, Puma.
[Puma] and we never really got to merry and pippin
[Puma] legolas or gimli
[Goldberry] well, it’s 1:30am so I’ll have to go
[Demosthenes] Darkover: i dunno. she did have the example of Luthien. Probably spoke to elrond about it a time or two.
[Puma] too big a topic for 1 week
[Darkover] Anno, Arwen also got to be Queen of Elves and Men, as well as being the wife of the man who was devoted to her and whom she loved. Pretty big consolation prizes!
[Demosthenes] night Goldberry! thanks for joining us!
[Anno] Where does it tell about Elronds wife?
[Goldberry] thanks everyone, it’s been great 🙂
[Puma] sweet dreams Goldberry
[Anno] Yes Darkover 🙂
[Erkenbrand] night Goldberry
[Darkover] Demosthenes, Elrond also told Aragorn that the Gift of the One to Men would be hard for Arwen to accept in the end, which strongly suggests to me that he understood that she did not realize what she was getting into.
[Puma] Demz…..i would suggest we stop for now…….and pick up this topic again
[ChristineGolden] Galadriel is in a separate, unique category, Erkenbrand. Tolkien said she was modeled on the Virgin Mary, it would depend on whether you considered her to be heroic.
[Darkover] probably should, this topic has really grown
[ChristineGolden] I believe it’s either in the Silmarillion or appendices, anno.
[Puma] we would never end
[Puma] every character could be looked at
[ChristineGolden] Perhaps we could put some kind of order to it?
[Anno] I have read all of that and have not heard of this!
[Erkenbrand] can we extend this topic to next week?
[Demosthenes] Do you guys want to?
[Puma] yeah
[Erkenbrand] Yes
[Gondhir] Anno: It never explicitly states that his wife was raped.
[ChristineGolden] I’d be willing to give LotR a break if people want.
[Darkover] I could live with it
[Gondhir] but she was captured by Orcs and, after being rescued, was never quite the same
[Demosthenes] Okay we’ll give that a go.
[ChristineGolden] It’s implied, although I can’t cite the source. Perhaps Puma can
[Puma] it is implied
[Anno] Ok, I see. I will try to find this and read it.
[Puma] but never expicit
[Gondhir] I think she could have just as easily been beaten up
[Puma] i dont think she would have left for just that Gondhir
[Darkover] probably both. And Tolkien said she was tormented, which was usually his word for torture
[Gondhir] hard to say, Puma
[Anno] What was her name again? My brain just lost it lol
[Puma] agreed
[Darkover] so, maybe she was all three
[Gondhir] “tormented” can mean a lot of things
[Darkover] Celebrian
[Gondhir] a “tormentor” can cause quite a bit of psychological damage without raping someone
[Anno] Yes that’s right, thank you.
[Darkover] should we stop here, and begin again next week?
[Puma] great discourse people…….this was fun!!!
[ChristineGolden] Btw, I wanted to apologize if my remarks seemed a bit ‘aggressive’ earlier today, Gondhir. I don’t get emotionally involved in chats and have a hard time recognizing/dealing with those who do. (Not implying you personally, but hopefully, you know what I mean.)
[Darkover] As usual!
[Anno] Sure, I’m going to go look her up now lol
[Puma] lets do this topic again.and pick up where we left off
[ChristineGolden] Demosthenes?
[Demosthenes] Yep. We’ll do that.
[Darkover] Okay. Thanks for a great discussion, all
Session Close: Sun Jul 21 09:54:26 2013
Hall of Fire chat log: the hero and the heroic in The Lord of the Rings
July 28th, 2013 by Demosthenes
