Hail and well met! Welcome to TheOneRing.net’s combination blog/log/commentary on today’s chat with Guillermo del Toro and Peter Jackson.
The log is presented in reverse chronological order, combined with comments and observations from TORn staffers. For a straight chronological log of the chat, you can find one here.
The TORn staff are continuing to mull this over and as they do, we are adding observations. We hope you enjoy it. (last updated: 9:10 p.m. EST)
Taking part in the discussion: Assistant news editors MrCere and maegwen, Green Books editor Tookish, Demosthenes and TORn PTB Tehanu . Plus leo, jincey and others.
Discuss the revelations
in TORN’s chatroom “Barlimans” or on our messageboards.
PJ: OK we are almost done here folks and we have our last Q which was the most popular Q from the 1000s of people who sent Qs in advance.
Which of the actors from LOTR will be back to reprise their roles in The Hobbit and its companion film?
GDT: Obviously, at this stage, the second film is still being figured out-so the actors that have been approached may or not have appeared in the HOBBIT as a literary work but still may appear in the second film as it “blends” into the Trilogy and expands. Therefore what can be said is: Unequivocally, every single actor that originated a role in the Trilogy will be asked to participate and reprise it. If Health, availability or willingness become obstacles – and only in that case recasting would be considered.
PJ: Like Guillermo says, apart from extreme circumstances, we would never recast a character who appeared in the LOTR trilogy. You can read The Hobbit and pretty much see which characters play a part. The unknown factor is Film Two, which we are still developing. If we wished to write one of the LOTR characters into the narrative of Film Two, we would only do that with that actors blessing, and willingess to take part. Otherwise we’d take the writing in another direction.
GDT: Time is up-But I can proudly say that only a FEW asked “How can I be an extra?” so my heart swell withy pride with the many questions that you were kind enough to submit- More chats and wandering in the message boards await us- See you soon…
PJ: So that is it for us for this morning or this evening, or middle of the night wherever you are. We are sorry that is all we could get through but we did try to have each of the Qs represent similar things that many of you have asked. So hopefully it gives you a little bit of info. As I said the truth is there are a lot of unanswered Qs for us as well at this stage of the process. We will know a lot more once the scripts are written which is the next job that we will be doing and it will take most of the rest of this year I imagine. Hope this has been helpful and thank you for all the incredible support now and in years gone by. Best wishes, Peter J.
GDT: May the hair on your toes, etc-
PJ: The transcript of this chat will be available here on the Weta site in a few hours time. Everyone here at Weta is looking foward to continuing this relationship with you throughout the hobbit experience and there are a lot of fun surprises to come over the next 4 years.
maegwen: sorry guys! We beat you to it!
GDT: Viva WETA and the many “toys” they make! And may Cthulhu give me more shelves to put them on…
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When Del Toro has acknowledged his disdain for Hobbits and “sword and sandals” fantasy, how can he do justice to the movie? Why can’t Peter direct it himself after The Lovely Bones? He can direct these 2 movies and then direct the 3rd Tintinmovie.
GDT: Okay- If by “Sword and Sandal” you mean “Sword and Sorcery” I stand by the general lines of my statement in 2006. But allow me to reproduce the following paragraph from ONERING.net and expand it-
Since the age of 4 I became an avid reader and collector of books; manuscripts, pamphlets, first editions, small press or worn-down paperbacks… they all find a home at my library which has grown so cumbersome and obtrusive that I had to move to a separate home from the family one…
For many decades my main area of interest has been horror fiction: Algernon Blackwood, Arthur Machen, MR James, LeFanu, etc and classic Fairy tales and literature about the engines of Myth: unabridged Grimm, Andersen, Wilde, Bettelheim, Tatar, etc
Now and then I indulge in Science Fiction (not hardware oriented but more humanistic things) and thus I count Bradbury, Ellison, Sturgeon and Matheson amongst my favorites.
My area of interest gets much narrower when we deal with another genre… the genre that is shelved under Fantasy.
As a youngster I read Moorcock, Clark Ashton Smith, Lord Dunsany, Lloyd Alexander, Fritz Leiber, Marcel Schwob, RE Howard and a few others.
Nevertheless I was never propelled into an aleatory addiction to sub-genres like Sword & Sorcery or indiscriminate fantasies about magical this or that- Like any other genre or subgenre there’s a great abundance that makes it hard to discern when a new “trilogy” or “chronicle” comes from as genuine a place as Tolkien’s or derives from genuine fervor -religious or otherwise- like C.S. Lewis’ did.
But here I am now: reading like a madman to catch up with a whole new land, a continent of sorts- a Cosmology created by brilliant philologist turned Shaman.
As if he grasped an existing universe outside our Platonic cave, Tolkien channels an entire world, weaving expertly from myth and lore. The oustanding virtue is that all this scholarly erudition doesn’t reduce his tales to mere Taxidermy. He achieves an Alchemy all of his own: he writes new life in the freshly sculpted clay of his creatures.
I have, through the years become familiar with the very roots of Tolkien’s myths and the roots of Fafhrd or Elric or Hyperborea and many a time I have relished the intricate ways in which demonic wolves, shape-shifter and spindly-limbed pale warriors can be woven into those many tales that become, at the end, the single tale, the single saga- that of what is immortal in us all.
In creating Pan’s Labyrinth I drank deep of the most rigid form of Fairy Lore and tried to contextualize the main recurrent motifs in an instinctive rhyme between the world of fantasy and the delusions of War and Politics (the grown man’s way of playing make-believe) and in re-reading THE HOBBIT just recently I was quite moved by discovering, through Bilbo’s eyes the illusory nature of possession, the sins of hoarding and the banality of war- whether in the Western Front or at a Valley in Middle Earth. Lonely is the mountain indeed.
When that statement was made- at different times during PANS LABYRINTH’s promotion, many a time I made the distinctive call to say that althought I had not read Tolkien outside THE HOBBIT I had been fascinated by the Trilogy films. A statement that I already had the chance to make in 2005 when PJ, Fran and I met about HALO.
So, no, generally I am NOT a “Sword and Sorcery” guy or a “Fantasy” guy- By the same token, I’m not a sci-fi guy but I would make a film based on Ellison in a second- or on Sturgeon or Bradbury or Matheson. I’m not into Barbarians with swords but i would kill to tackle Fafhrd and Grey Mouse… and so on and so forth… I’m a believer but not a Dogmatic.
Allow me to put a final, finer point to our discussion. The aesthetics of HELLBOY II are completely Pop and color-saturated, much more comic book / modern than I would ever use in THE HOBBIT but- I spend two years creating a world of Fairies, Elves, Trolls, etc
Two Years. A career / creative decision that precedes any inkling of THE HOBBIT. I wrote the script years before I met with PJ or Fran. In other words I dedicated the last 6 years of my career (between PL and HBII) to create Fantastical world inhabited by Fairies, Fauns, Ogres, Trolls, Elves, etc
In that respect- I guess I am a Fantasy guy when the particular world appeals to me. Back in the Jurassic Period (1992 / 1993) when CRONOS won the Critic’s Week at Cannes I was referred to as an “art house guy”- I followed that with a giant cockroach movie that proved successful enough to spawn two sequels and allow me to co-finance THE DEVILS BACKBONE which send me back to being an “art house guy”. Then I did BLADE II and people thought of me as an “Action guy”- PJ went through a similar mercurial career with HEAVENLY CREATURES, BAD TASTE, DEAD ALIVE, etc I squirm away from a tag and I hope I can avoid being just a “Fantasy guy” after PL, HBII and H…
I do the tales I love (regardless of what shelf Barnes & Noble classifies the book under) and I love the HOBBIT.
I love it enough to give it half a decade of my life and move half a world away to do it.
PJ: Having directed the LOTR Trilogy, I really felt that I put my heart and soul into dramatising this world and story, only a few years ago. The idea of going back in and essentially competing against my own movies, seemed to be an unsatsifying way to spend the next 5 years. However, I love Tolkien and care deeply about the movies we made. I couldn’t bear the idea of somebody else making them without our involvement. Being a writer and producer is the perfect way for me to work here. Guillermo has the ultimate responsibility of directing, and for him it’s easier to make these movies feel different, simply because he’s not me, and he therefore has an original vision, with new ideas to offer.
Believe me, I thought long and hard about this, and what we’re doing here will result in better movies, I promise you. And that’s all that counts!
Guiilermo, I have always thought of you as a visionary director, and I love your work- could you please tell me what was the deciding factor that made you agree to direct The Hobbit?
GDT: Of all of Tolkien literary work I was only familiar with THE HOBBIT. I purchased it at age 11 and it struck a chord with me but, back then, I failed to connect with the Trilogy and the Silmarillion (Which now I find delectable) eluded me. I found them –unlike the HOBBIT- to be “too dense” for my young mind. I dreamt of Mirkwood and Smaug for ages (in fact, a Smaug-like dragon was scripted as part of the “fairy tale” Ophelia narrates to her brother in PANS LABYRINTH and was sculpted but was cut for budget reasons) but when I saw Peter undertake the Trilogy I thought thet the HOBBIT would never come to be for me. The proposition of spending half a decade crafting these films received- as Peter will atest- a 5 second “YES” from me. To people in my industry I’m usually a guy that tries to generate his own projects and I remain very elusive when people try and attach me to big projects. For decades I have passed on films of enormous scope but this is a fantastic privilege and I immediately said “Yes”.
I’d comment on the awesomeness of director choice, but I’m sure that gets old. Concerning The Hobbit and the numerous Dwarves, I was wondering if all of them are going to find their way into the film. In Lord of the Rings, you had 9 in the Fellowship, but you had three movies to flesh them out. In the Hobbit, you have 13 Dwarves and one film to throw them all in. I’m definitely hoping to see all 13 make their way in, but what are you doing about this?
GDT: Tolkien wrote 13 dwarves and I intend to use 13 dwarves. I am, in fact, thrilled to keep them all and have them be distinguishable and affecting as characters. Much of the drama and emotion in the last third of the book and film will come from them.
MrCere> That is THE question I wanted asked
MrCere> 13 dwarves, how to handle them all, that made my day and I am sure a lot of others
MrCere> GDT plans to make the dwarves “distinuishable and affecting”
maegwen> I’m still not entirely convinced that “have them be distinguishable and affecting” doesn’t mean “beardless and cute as hobbits.” I hope not, but 13 Gimlis won’t make Hollywood marketers happy. I am hoping it doesn’t go that way.MrCere> This is my favorite question and answer of the whole chat. I love that he doesn’t envision a bunch of background dwarves and used “distinguishable and affecting as characters”. This will a difficult script challenge but make the movie MUCH better and of course is a departure from the book
Guillermo, assuming they are all returning to write the screenplay, will you be writing alongside Peter, Philippa and Fran also?
GDT: I intend to. Their input in the literary creation of the screenplay is a must. I depend on them and expect to spend many delightful months wandering through Middle Earth.
Tookish> i think writing the films sounds like one of the best parts
Demosthenes> i think it’d be a stressful process.
maegwen> best/worst
Demosthenes> There are a lot of cooks stirring this pot.
PJ: Writing a screen play with a group of collaborators is like the Lennon McCartney collaboration …. sometimes one or two people do more than others on certain parts of the process and vice versa, it all comes out in the wash and we share equal credit in what everyone has done, with 4 of us we will be able to divide the work up in interesting ways and everyone will be able to help craft these films.
I’d like to ask Mr. GDT if he plans to use(as PJ did) extensive matte paintings and “big-atures” to portray the vast panoramas and cities of Middle-earth or the more simpler CG effects? Thanks and cheers.
GDT: Peter and I both love “old school” techniques. I adore physical miniatures and try to use them as much as I can and have a bit of a fetish about that. Matte Paintings and “Big-atures” will definetly be in these.
I would love to know how you are going to deal with goblins in the movie. Will they look like the smaller orcs in the LOTR movies or are you going to make a completely new design? Also will everything look like it did in the LOTR movies or will you be redesigning it to fit your vision?
GDT: This is an area in which I hope we can expand and enhance a LOT from the established designs in the Trilogy. I plan to come up with a very strong, new treatment for the Goblins. I also think the Wargs should be readdressed for their role in The HOBBIT.
One thing I love about watching movies from different film makers is seeing their own visions put on screen. But since these HOBBIT movies are being made to tie in with the LOTR series, does this mean Mr. Del Toro’s wonderfully imaginitive vision will be limited to follow the rules set up by Mr. Jackson?
GDT: It is my privilege to roam through roads previously traced but I definetly intend to take you to new and exciting places that the Trilogy did not explore. Nevertheless it is our intention that, once done, the 5 films will play like a symphonic work that seamlessly transports you through this worl
Considering that you’re stretching The Hobbit into 2 movies can we assume that Beorn will be featured and will not be given the Tom Bombadil treatment?
GDT: I may be in the minority, but I absolutely LOVE Beorn and I intend to feature him in the films. BTW I also like TB quite a bit…
MrCere> And, Beorn is IN the films
Tookish> Larry what about Vin Deisel for Beorn?
MrCere> I like Vin, a much better actor (Saving Private Ryan) than his big-budget cash cows people remember him forTehanu> TomBombadil hint!!!!!
MrCere> Say hello to Ron Pearlman
MrCere> wow! I missed that Tehanu, excellent
MrCere> a really juicy tidbit
MrCere> Wow, now that we called GDT “old school” he calls himself “old school”
My question comes in two parts. Firstly will we notice a significant shift in visual style from LOTR to the Hobbit due to Guillermo’s unique aesthetic? And if so will there be a complete re-imagining in the design of places seen in both books (ie Bag End and Rivendell) due to this differing style?
GDT: The basic designs, the preestablished designs will be only “updated” insofar as the epoch difference. Half a century more or less which in Middle Earth terms is not that much but- think about how much our world has changed from – say 2001 to now… The new settings and designs should blend in enough not to feel like a completely different world but yes, the movies are bound to have some distinctive stylistic imprint.
Gentlemen, a two part question. 1st, shooting on film or HD? 2nd, scope or flat?
GDT: I normally use 1:85 but I thoroughly plan to respect Peter’s choice of format used in the Trilogy (2:35:1) but it is my intention, for now, to shoot this on film, not HD.
MrCere> Wow! GDT plans to FILM these movies, not use digital
MrCere> he is old school and loves being old school and the 2:35:1 format just like LOTR, wow THAT is a revelation
How will the new Gollum differ from the Gollum of the LOTR trilogy, if at all?
GDT: Once again, only in the passage of time (he’s half a century “younger”) but it will be Andy and the established design will be our Template
Will the Mirkwood Elves be different from the Rivendell Elves of the LOTR trilogy?
GDT: That is definitely my intention but I cannot reveal anymore at the moment.
Demosthenes>: It makes sense to make the Mirkwood elves different. it works with the canon, because they were Silvan (not even Sindar) and more rustic than the elves of Rivendell — many of whom were probably survivors of the ruin of Eregion (ie: Noldorin high elves).
leo> and they had better have dark hair, or so help me Manwë…
My question is one that I think you will hear alot of from many of us…from what material will you pulling the second movie from? I know it’ll be great with you two on board, but I am mighty curious. I am a huge fan of both of you and I look foward to more Tolkien films!
GDT: The idea is to find a compelling way to join THE HOBBIT and FELLOWSHIP and enhance the 5 films both visually an in their Cosmology. There’s omissions and material enough in the available, licensed material to attempt this. The agreement is, however, that the second film must be relevant and emotionally strong enough to be brought to life but that we must try and contain the HOBBIT in a single film.
PJ: I’m really looking forward to developing Film Two. It gives us a freedom that we haven’t really had on our Tolkien journey. Some of you may well say that’s a good thing of course! The Hobbit is interesting in how Tolkien created a feeling of dangerous events unfolding, which preoccupy Gandalf. There’s an awful lot of incident that happens during that 60 year gap. At this stage, we’re not imagining a film that literally covers 60 years, like a bio-pic or documentary. We would figure out what happens during that 60 years, and choose one short section of time to drop in and dramatize for the screen. I’m really interested in how it effects The Hobbit – do we show what happens to Gandalf during his trips away? We’ll see. We may well have seeds for Film Two that we’ll subtly sow during The Hobbit.
leo> I’d say that is hinting towards a Gandalf-centered story for film two
Tookish> i hope they’ll sow Silmarillion seeds too 🙂(A long staff argument ensues– scroll to the end)
MrCere: There is still plenty of room to speculate about this film and Peter’s comments are going to thrill some fans and fill others with dread. As he said the shackles are off and they will chose one short section, not the whole 60 years. Wow.
MrCere: There will be “purists” among us who despair when learning this and others who will just see it as more of the good, extremely interesting to me.
What production challenges do you feel will be different for The Hobbit and the sequel compared to the experience of making The LOTR?
PJ: Yikes! Every film is a challenge. I always say that making a movie is like film school – you’re always learning. But unlike most schools, you never get done with it. You never learn everything. Over time, you get to anticipate problems a little better – but new ones hit you. You get to figure out solutions, but there are always extreme problems you could never guess.
One of the things I’m going to enjoy in this experience, is that I’ll be better placed to help anticipate the problems and fix them. When you’re directing, you’re right at the coal face, always exhausted, often emotional – and I’ll enjoy being a couple of steps back from that and simply helping where I can. Having done it 3 times as director, there’s a lot I know that can help smooth the way for Guillermo.
MrCere> That is a great explanation of why PJ stepped back from directing
MrCere> it may not be the whole reason, he owes nobody an explanation for his choice, but that is very interesting, he plans to enjoy the making of these films
Will you do another chat later on in the process?
GDT: Gladly- gladly- Im in!!
PJ: we would love to this has been a lot of fun. Let us just get the last of the official questions out because we are working down to the most popular ones in the final few
Will Gollum play a role in the second film? If not, any plans to find a different role for Andy Serkis? Because, and I think most will agree with me, everything is better with more Serkis.
GDT: Yes! As all of you know, Gollum has a rather fascinating arch to go through and his alliance to Shelob or his period of imprisonment in Thranduil’s, etc but it is early still- so early in fact that to reveal more would tie our hands and be counterproductive.
GDT: There can never be “too much Andy”
MrCere: The directors certainly see big possibilities with Gollum, maybe Andy can get that Oscar after all
MrCere> Those Gollum questions are very smart too
Tookish> and hints at how he sees the way to weave in disparate components of The Hobbit, the other histories of ME and whatever they want to include from the LotR appendices
MrCere> There are a lot of Andy Serkis possibilities
Tehanu> Having scenes of Gollum’s imprisonment gives them a chance to play with our sympathies, so we don’t know if we’re on Gollum’s side sometimes or not
How does Christopher Tolkien feel about the two new films?
PJ: Christopher Tolkien did not wish to be involved in the LOTR movies and I would assume his feelings are the same with these two films. I totally respect him for that since he is looking after the legacy of his father’s books and does not wish to be involved in someone else’s interpretation of those stories.
Tookish> PJ answered the Tolkien estate question very well, wisely spoken
Having recently reread the Hobbit with my children, it strikes me that the Hobbit contains a fairly linear story that doesn’t necessarily follow the “three act” formula typical of movies. What do you see as the biggest challenge adapting the story to the big screen?
GDT: There are so many- I am all for trying to preserve every idiosyncrasy the novel has- the very things that seem “unfilmable” and that – in my mind- will make it thrilling as a film. The novel is much, much more inventive and dislocated in its narrative (Bilbo being hit by a rock during the Battle) than you may think at first. I think that you can treat a classic like a museum piece –stuffed and mounted- or you can make it a living, breathing narrative that is unfolding right then and there.
PJ: Structure is important in film, but as Guillermo says, there’s often structure to be found in the most unlikely of places! It’s quite possible to build a structured story and retain idiosyncrasy. It’s going to be part of the joy of writing this.
Tookish> “different interpretations” of the story… that also creates a context for everyone to remember that these are stories OF middle earth… they are not reprintings of Tolkien’s writing.
Tehanu> GDT’s answer implies that he’s going to avoid the ‘visual xerox’ approach to adapting the book
MrCere> That really is the biggest question of how the movie will end up, the structure of the script
Is The Hobbit harder or easier than LOTR to adapt as a script?
PJ: Both are equally difficult to be completely honest. The Hobbit has its own unique problems, different to those of LOTR.
GDT: Not easy- I tell you that-
Will Weta be releasing figures for this film like it did with Kong and Narnia?
GDT: I would hope so!! I want them all!!
how important is it to you to create overall consistency between Peter’s LOTR films and Guillermo’s? in terms of the actors, look and feel, scenery, score, fx — is your aim to have them stand on their own or sync up with the trilogy?
GDT I believe that it’s a little bit of both- the world must feel like the same world. The aspect ratio, music, essential established costume and production design trademarks but I would love to bring a lot of new flavours to the table. THE HOBBIT is, in essence, an overture to a massive Symphonic work so main themes are reprised but new modulations and new colors are introduced, thematically and texturally.
PJ: I love Guillermo’s symphonic allusion. The “overture” can have a different flavour, a different texture, yet be a carefully crafted introduction to what’s to follow. Film Two is perfect to dramatise the
shift in Middle-earth that propells us into the dark days of LOTR. If LOTR is World War One, then the Hobbit is like an Edwardian adventure tale, set in the days before world notices the looming storm clouds.
Guillermo, Will Peter be directing Hellboy 3 at some point?
GDT: Offers have been made but he remains elusive- we will be in talks soon.
Will be seeing The While Council in The Hobbit?
PJ: To early to say before the scripts are written but it is definitely an idea we are discussing.
Tookish> Well you *know* they will be including the White Council… the question is how, when and where?
MrCere> Yes, that is exactly right. You can’t have that period of time with these characters and NOT have the white council
Demosthenes> There is a long passage in the council of elreond chapter in fotr where aragorn and gandalf describe stuff with the white council and the capture of gollum and that could be used as the basis for F2. But they’d have to be very careful not to overlap with what’s in Unfinished Tales
Demosthenes> I suspect that also means we won’t get any “pre-story” about how Gandalf met up with Thorin originally either because that is all in UT as well.
Demosthenes> More than likely the script will start where the Hobbit does.
GDT: There’s a very good chance if the “gaps” are filled in some form in either narrative. Too early…
Loved the video diaries for King Kong, will you guys be doing something similar for the Hobbit?
PJ: There is a lot of questions about production diaries for the internet – the truth is that Guillermo and I haven’t even discussed this topic yet, now do we have a real plan in place for the internet and DVD side of the film. You have to realise that although this was announced and is all round the world we are at the very beginning of the process just starting to think about the scripts. We are not trying to fob anyone off but we simply haven’t got that far in the process yet and it is a plan we will put into place during the course of 2009.
Tookish> I think that video diaries are a great concept and I’m sure TORn would love to be considered to help with any kind of project like that
MrCere> *applause*
I always thought creating Gollum would pose a great artisic challenge to the artists whose job it would be to adapt the Lord of the Rings. With the Hobbit I believe Smaug will pose one of the great challenges. Now we have all seen dragons in movies. But for the Hobbit I personally am excepting nothing less than unbelievable . Were will you go for inspiration? What styles will the art dirction look at? Personally I can see a lot being done with the setting from Pan’s Labyrinth. Thank you and good luck to you all.
GDT: This is a big one– Allow me to quote form my random responses at Onering.net…
I am a big Dragon fan. I’ve said it before- And I was fortunate enough to be born a Dragon in the Chinese Horocope…
And although its always impossible to agree on the “greatest” of anything, I bring forth these two as the main film contenders for that title: Eyvind Earle / Disney’s Maleficent dragon ( a triumph of elegance of color and design) and Vermitrax Pejorative from Dragonslayer.
In my opinion, every other design has borrowed heavily from these two. I plan to create something new and groundbreaking.
Smaug should not be “the Dragon in the Hobbit movie” as if it was just another” creature in a Bestiary. Smaug should be “The DRAGON” for all movies past and present. The shadow he cast and the greed he comes to embody- the “need to own” casts its long shadow and creates a thematic / dramatic continuity of sorts that articulates the story throughout-In that respect, Smaug the CHARACTER is as important, if not more
important, than the design. The character will emerge form the writing- and in that the Magnificent arrogance, intelligence, sophistication and greed of Smaug shine through-
In fact, Thorin’s greed is a thematic extension of this and Bilbo’s “Letting go” and his noble switching of sides when the dwarves prove to be in the wrong is its conceptual counterpart (that is a hard one to get through, Bilbo’s heroism is a quiet, moral one) and the thematic thread reaches its climax in the Bilbo / Thorin death bed scene.
Anyway, back to Smaug: One of the main mistakes with talking dragons is to shape the mouth like a snub Simian one in order to achieve a dubious lip-synch. .. A point which eluded me particularly in Eragon, since
their link is a psychic one.
To me, Smaug is the perfect example of a great creature defined by its look and design, yes, but also, very importantly, by his movement and -One little hint- its environment – Think about it… the way he is scaled, moves and is lit, limited or enhanced by his location, weather conditions, light conditions, time of the year, etc. That’s all I can say without spoilers but, if you keep this curious little summary you’ll realize several years form now that those things I had in my mind ever since doodling the character as a kid had solidified waaay before starting the shoot of the film.
A big tool is also how and when he is fully revealed. I could give you specifics- beat-by-beat in fact (I’m geeking out to do it), but…
I will say no more in order to save you from ruthless spoilerage (we have a few years to go, you now…?) and increased anxiety.
Let me, however, say that this is actually one of the points I feel most enthusiastic about.
As to his voice- well, each reader has a Smaug voice in his / her head, just like you always do when “hearing” a great character in a book.
I have mine… and it will be revealed in time…
Tookish> this paragraph is RIFE with information about how they will be treating smaug… awesome!
Tookish> woohoo GTD with the TORn reference!!
MrCere> Can you believe how fast he just typed all that?
MrCere> Script should be done by 11 p.m.
Any ideas about the talking wargs? the wargs in hobbit are remarkably different from the “hyena” ones in the LOTR movies..
GDT: Absolutely: they will be different from the Hyena ones established in the Trilogy- they will be faithful to the creatures in the book and will be redesigned accordingly.
Tookish> Here we see an example how, while they will be striving to make five connected movies, there will be some contrasts from what’s established in PJ’s LotR… hopefully for the better.
(random comment that slipped into the mainstream: As no bugger is going to answer our questions we may as well talk to each other! I guess we should have submitted questions earlier on as it seems they are being answered!!!)
PJ: the buggers in Wgtn and London are wading through 6000 Q as best we can. Every Q answered represents a number of similar questions.
GDT: As they say in Family feud: “Survey Says:”
Peter, perhaps you could clarify what your role will be in the production of these films: What exactly does an executive producer do? Will you follow that model or “forge your own path?” How will Guillermo’s role and your role be different? Do you plan on writing the script again with Fran and Phillippa?
PJ: Truth is “Executive Producers” do a range of things on movies from a lot to virtually nothing! I see myself being one of a production team. My interest is helping Guillermo make the very best films he can. I love writing and I’m looking forward to that. Guillermo will be writing, along with Fran, Philippa and myself. As a director, I could never direct something I didn’t have a hand in writing, and we’re not expecting Guillermo to do that either. If the director is part of the writing, it means he was there when the discussions took place, story decisions were made … he knows why things are the way they are, and what they need to achieve. Everything is in a script for a reason, and only by being part of a writing team (or writing it yourself), do you really understand the intention of every beat.
I see my role as being part of that writing team, which will create the blueprint, and then helping Guillermo construct the movie. I want Guillermo to make his movies, and I want to make sure we end up with a 5 movie series that’s as good as it can possibly be.
MrCere> Great answer from PJ about his own role, he is again supporting GDT
MrCere> And he confirms the hints that GDT will assist in the writing process
maegwen> personaly I’m thrilled there will be another voice at the writing table. I think continuity is wonderful, but I think fresh perspectives are absolutely necessary to keep it interesting.
Tookish> Yeah… and I like how PJ clarifies his role in the writing phase… knitting the five films together and connecting the two hobbit films will take his touch
Tookish> I wonder how or if they will weave in references to more backstory and ME history… eluding to stories, characters or myths from The Silimarillion…
MrCere> I wonder how much they can get away with
Tookish> Larry you mean in terms of legality?
MrCere> yes
What will be the title for the second movie?
GDT: Too early- but not “H2 Electric Boogaloo” that has been discarded.
MrCere> Wow, GDT knows geek-speak and refers to the all-time funny sequel “Electric Boogaloo”
PJ: the second movie doesn’t have a title yet and probably won’t until we write the script. As you will see we have the incredibly boring name Film Two which I assure you will not last for very long. Just bear with us.
will Alan Lee and John Howe be on board again? I really admire their work.
GDT: As I said, I had a marvelous lunch with John and Alan in London a few days ago and we all got very excited as we discussed my ideas on Smaug, Mirkwood, etc They are most definetly back!
PJ: Impossible to imagine it without them!
Tookish> It is reasuring to know that Howe and Lee will be on the design team… that in itself will cement major conceptual and visual aspects of the next two movies to the LotR films
Tookish> so we have howe, lee, shore, WETA and GDT’s team together…. sounds like a good combo to me!
MrCere> I wonder if they will invite Ted Nasmith and if he will not be too busy to participate this time?
So how was your first meeting with each other?
PJ: The first time I remember meeting Guillermo was at Bob Shay’s hosue during a LOTR party. Obviously at that time we had no concept of what the future held!!
GDT: We finished a tray of shrimps together and agreed that NEW LINE should keep hiring round, bearded directors with funny accents…
Guillermo del Toro is an accomplished director. I just wondered whether ok not, he will bring more prostetics, animatronics and physical effects to the film, as he does with such films as Hellboy and Pan’s Labyrinth (which are great films by the way)? Or will Weta Digital still have their work cut out for them with VFX?
GDT: I plan to mix CGI and PHYSICAL in such a way that your eye wonders which is which- keep you mind busy but NEVER allowing for the weaknesses of either tool to take over. Yes, I have, by trial and error, learned that both tools need to be mixed and how much they must be mixed to succeed in creating environments and living creatures. WETA is the lead house, absolutely but we will expand the creature team and beef up the prosthetics team. Imagine a physical creature with a radio controlled muscle / facial system but with partial CGI replacement on the head or mouth, etc and you’ll start to get the idea…
MrCere> Both directors share the vision and opinion that physical, practical special effects are a lot more “special” than CGI
MrCere> GDT again alludes to animatronic creatures, probably including dragons
Tookish> Yes, and that’s one of the things that made much of LotR so realistic
Tookish> The WETA team have done some great animatronics with the Narnia creatures.
Tookish> I like the way that GDT spelled out how the mix of animatronics and cgi will solve these problems….
maegwen>I’m not a huge fan of animatronics at all, but i’m willing to see what they come up with — not that I have a whole lot of choice 😉
Are you already go to New Zealand, Mr.Del Toro ?
GDT: Yes- Ive been actually been thyere already -secretly- shh- and will be there shortly after HELLBOY II opens and will be getting a LOT of frequent flyer miles in the next few months-
During production of the trilogy, there were days where there were several filming crews working simultaneously, with different people directing. Would you ever want to head up a crew and direct the shooting of a scene for a day?
PJ: Most directors prefer to direct everything themselves. I thought I could on LOTR, but very quickly found out that the sheer scale prevented it. Instead of a 15 month shoot, we would have shot for 3 years! Guillermo always shoots his own material, so we’ll do our best to construct a schedule that allows him to do that. It will depend a lot on how the scripts break down.
I’d happily shot some second unit stuff, anytime Guillermo asked me to. But let’s see what happens.
MrCere> So this alludes to multiple units but on the Hobbit at least, the story happens in one place at one time with one cast
MrCere> The 2nd film might require many units like LOTR did
Tehanu> PJ’s making it clear he’s stepping aside and giving GDT autonomy, letting him call the shots
Tookish> yep… and that he’d work UNDER del Torro… how cool is that!
MrCere> Erica is right, that is a clear indication that he is saying, “I am not the director”
Was it intentional to release the first Hobbit film on the 10 year anniversary of FOTR?
PJ: No this is the first time I have actually thought about it … that is nice I will claim credit for the idea from this day forward
Will the two movies be shot at the same time?
GDT: The idea is to shoot them “back to bacK” with a small break to breathe and to reconstruct certain sets and have time to reasses… But a schedule of a year is expecvted.
PJ: Yes the movies will be shot back to back and the shooting of the movie will be driven by which actors are working with us at a given time and what locations we are in. For instance, if we are shooting hObbiton scenes for Hobbit movies we would also shoot Hobbiton scenes for F2. So during our year of filming we will be shooting both movies at the same time out of sequence.
Tookish> The responses confirm what we have already heard about The Hobbit standing alone in film one and then more storyling coming together for film two
Hi. Do you intend to play this one by the Book (The Hobbit that is) and make it a very light childrens tale on film, or do you plan to stick with the much darker treatment- in keeping with the LotR films – particularly the latter ones. My personal preference would be for the latter – cannot see how eg. the Rivendell Elves could regress from their nobility in LotR to those “…Tra-la-la-la….” singing versions which wer in teh Hobbit Book. Thank you. “Tra-la-la-la” singing
GDT: We’ll see about the “Tra-la-la-“ later- but the book, I believe, in echoing the “loss of innocence” England experienced after WWI, is a passage form innocence to a darker, more somber state- The visual / thematic progression should reflect that in the camera style, color palette, textural choices, etc.
PJ: As I said earlier, I personally feel that The Hobbit can, and should have a different tone. The “tone” of these stories shouldn’t be defined by the pressure our characters were under in LOTR. The world is a different place at the time of the Hobbit. The shadow is not so dark. However, what should stay the same is the reality of Middle-earth, and the integrity we bring to it as film makers.
Tookish> It’s interesting that they are seeing parallels with preWWI England and The Hobbit…
[Tookish> …but I’m not sure I agree with the notion that in a few short decades the remaining Elves of ME went from “fa lala lally” to gloom and doom…
Tookish> it’s truer to say that the hobbits went from a more blissfully ignorant existence to one more fearful and encroached by the world during that time, but the elves?
MrCere> very interesting point
Did you start casting for the 13 dwarves?
GDT: Nope- no casting has started yet. Casting- I mean… BUt some people have thrown their helmet in the ring.
PJ: no casting has commenced and won’t until the scripts are written. We have had chats with one or two ofthe LOTR actors however but the casting will be driven largely by the writing and it is impossible to cast 13 dwarves without knowing their personality and characters. We anticipate we won’t be in serious casting mode for these movies until well into next year.
leo> as always I start thinking of my best questions when it is too late
leo> but I would’ve loved to ask them how they are going to find 13 actors who are silly enough to go through the horrible make-up thing JRD had to go through for months
leo> or maybe they are developing a better solution for the makeup this time around?
Demosthenes> john rhys davies will play all 13 dwarves
Demosthenes> just with different coloured beards
maegwen> like the oompah loompahs in the willie wonka remake
In the Hobbit book, we have talking trolls and the Eagles and Smaug talks as well, however in the LOTR Trilogy, trolls did no more than grunt, Fellbeasts screamed, and the Eagles, who were meant to talk, just stayed silent. How much will the portayle of such animals change in the Hobbit?
GDT: I think it should be done exactly as in the book- the “talking beast” motif has to exist already to allow for that great character that is Smaug. It is far more jarring to have a linear movie and then – out of the blue – a talking Dragon.
MrCere> GDT makes a very good point about previously talking animals setting up Smaug
Tehanu> Wonder if they’ll have the moving mouth thing….GDT made a comment about that somewhere, thinking abouthow Smaug would talk
MrCere> T: very good question, HOW will Smaug talk?
MrCere> I think it seems the same way that other animals talk
Tookish> Yes they’ll have to have a talking Smaug and it would have to be done with cgi
Tookish> i asked if they’ll do motion capture research with lizards and bats… 🙂
Tehanu> nice
Tehanu> GDT said somewhere something about making the dragon have ‘simian’ face characteristics in order to speak, and that he didn’t like that. Not sure he said what his solution was.
MrCere> HOW in the world could anybody film dragons, giant spiders, goblins and battle of 5 armies (especially GDT) in a “light hearted” manner like the books and not make “Bridge To Teribithia”?
MrCere> T: He didn’t provide a solution, just said he didn’t want the dragon to talk like a human, or simian like you just said, I am from the reduncancy department of redundancy
Tookish> lol
Tookish> what are simian face characteristics?
Tehanu> You know, humanoid lips, nose…not a long snout like a reptile
Tookish> ah ok
maegwen> No, it’s ape-like
Will we be seeing Legolas in Mirkwood?
GDT: We all think that this is a very interesting idea but the scripts are in process so- sorry,.. too early to tell.
maegwen> and a million fangirls squealed in delight. Well that could offset the 13 not-hot bearded-dwarves problem…. 🙂
Will you be using the same production team ie. Special effects, art directors, cinematographers, composer etc..
GDT: Many of them will be back. I will supplement the FX departments, the design departments (with very interesting names), but the crew will utilize as many of the original elements as possible.
Tookish> I’m glad there is a question about the production team… personally I think that it’s essential for the production/design and all that goes with it to be identical to that in LOTR… I want these films to have that kind of continuity.
Will the Hobbit get an extended edition like LOTR?
PJ: interesting Q. The truth (and this is the truth) is that you don’t plan for extended editions up front an extended edition is the result of left over scenes that have been deleted out of theatrical cut. In an ideal world the script is written lean and tight and therefore there are no scenes left on the cuttring room floor and therefore no extended edition. However when writing 3 epic LOTR films there was no way we could keep the writing process as lean, so the extended edition was a result of seeing our thought process during the writing and shooting play itself out on screen with scenes we no longer needed when we finally cut the films together. Whether there will be an extended edition of the Hobbit will depend entirely on the final theatrical cut and what we have left over.
GDT: That one is REALLY too early to answer… but being a DVD freak (now a B-Ray freak) I think that if you have enough alternative material you can make it accesible on DVD (or B-R) format… Is not a priori that one decides this.
MrCere> I believe PJ and GDT when they say they don’t know if there will be extended editions, but I also believe there absolutely WILL BE EXTENDED editions, they will not be able to help it, particularly on the 2nd film
Tookish> Cere, i agree with that
maegwen> It goes back to what PJ says though, and what I’ve always said, if you plot your story “tight” from the beginning, you shouldn’t have all these loose ends unravelling. There are things I like about the LOTR Extended DVDs, but they’re also very frustrating — to me — because so much of what really clarified the theatrical version ended up lurking on them. I’d like to see a more concise film. Sorry PJ! (easy to say from the peanut gallery)
So what age rating are you aiming at?
PJ: the rating will be the same as the Trilogy, PG13 on both movies
GDT: An intense PG-13…
MrCere> Wow, so the Hobbit will not be the hard ‘R’ movie we all thought it would be?
maegwen> good lord
Tookish> lol
Tehanu> People on my screen are saying ‘so no dwarf sex scene in the second movie?”
maegwen> mine aren’t saying anything
jincey> i think there is only one other person in my room
What was it about Guillermo that made you feel he was the right guy to continue on the saga of Middle-earth? Are the two of you on the same page for the vision, direction, and style that these movies will have? If the two of you disagree on a point, who wins out?
PJ: I’ll talk more about this in a later question, but watching his films, he has respect for fantasy. He understands it, he’s not frightened by it. Guillermo also understands character, and how the power of any movie is almost always linked to how closely we empathize with characters within the story. His work shows great care and love for the main characters he creates. He also has supreme confidence with design, and visual effects. So many film makers are scared of visual effects – which is no crime, but tough if you’re doing one of these movies!
If we disagree, the director has to win, because you should never force a director to shoot something they don’t believe in. But we’re both reasonably practical and ego-free, and I believe that if we disagree, we both have the ability to express our differing theorys – state our case, like lawyers – and between us, work out what’s best for the movie.
Tookish> sounds like GDT will have good rein on the films
MrCere> One thing PJ is doing in this chat is making it crystal clear that his is actually GDT’s movie(s). He has gone out of his way to underscore that for fans, anticipating the angst that he isn’t directing.
When do you expect filming to begin?
PJ: at this point in time the plan is to write for the rest of this year and start early conceptual designs. 2009 will be dedicated to pre-production on both movies and 2010 will be the year we shoot both films back to back. Post productin follows one film at a time with The Hobbit being released Dec 2011, and F2 release Dec 2012. That is the schedule in about as much detail as we have ourselves at the moment.
Tookish> I like that they’ll release two movies in consecutive years… woohoo!
MrCere> Nice of PJ to go beyond the obvious answer and give us some REAL info about the schedule for the films
MrCere> those are news bits that has not be in the news yet
MrCere: I love that Jackson just told us the MONTHS and YEARS of the film releases. The studio is clearly on board with that, but rarely would share with fans. It will be part of the end-of-year tradition of LOTR.
I enjoyed your cameos in the LOTR movies, Will you have a cameo in this Hobbit, and what character would you like to play?
PJ: I actually haven’t thought about it. My convention is to do cameos in films I direct. I don’t know if that extends to films I produce. I guess we’ll find out. I love Hobbits! I am a Hobbit, in very many respects, as were my parents. Tolkien wrote about a type of people he knew, in pre-war England, and somewhere along the line, he must have bumped into my relatives!
GDT: Unllike Peter, I’m a Dwarf ( a coarse creature I am)- but I studiously avoid cameos…
MrCere: That actually characterizes the difference of the two directors rather nicely. While not literally true, it makes it easy for us to get a handle on them, a quick way to characterize them, a film-maker’s technique.
Will Ian McKellen return as Gandalf?
GDT: Absolutely!!
PJ: absolutely
Mr. del Toro, have you started keeping a notebook of sketches on this film yet?
GDT: I have started already and shared some of the design a=ideas with Alan Lee and John Howe during a very excited lunch in London.
Will you be filming the Hobbit in 3D?
GDT: At this stage it is too early to tell, but no plans are being made for that at the moment…
What do you envision Gandalf’s role will be in this film? He seems to go off on his own and disappear in several sections of the book. Do you want to stay faithful to that or give him a more active role? How do you think you’ll ingratiate his character into an effective, cinematic storyline?
GDT: I believe that Gandalf is meant to be used in that way- coming and going in and out of the narrative. If anything, this creates the perfect setting for those “gaps” to be bridged by the second film…
PJ: Those gaps are great! There’s a lot of stuff going on, which is distracting him. I’m just pleased to be getting Gandalf the Grey back for two more movies. Ian and I loved him best. We were a little sad when the
Gandy the White took over.
Tehanu> “Gandalf the Grey” – he’s a more human, approachable character – more for McKellen’s acting chops to work with. Yay!
Tookish> PJ and Ian were sad that Gandy the White took over… lol. I feel the SAME way!
Tookish> awesome
Tookish> Gandalf is kind of cantankerous in The Hobbit
Tehanu> and kind of witty too
Tookish> yep
Will you use the Hobbit holes usd in LotR?
PJ: Yes we hope with the permission of the land owner that we will rebuild Hobbiton bigger and even better than what it was for LOTR in exactly the same location
MrCere: Those holes were saved on the farmer’s property, famously, by one of New Zealand’s LOTR tours, Red Carpet Tours in fact, which were a day away from being destroyed. It sounds like they will be back in the same location. What nostalgia that will be!
What are the chances Ron Perlman will be voicing Smog?
GDT: At this time the voice of Smaug is down to a very few choices in my head and I have a completely specific one, Ron has a good chance but I have other plans for RP… we will see…
MrCere: Well, there it is, confirmation that Ron P. will be involved in some way. GDT joins the team but also brings his own people along. This will be fascinating to see and we better start figuring out where Perlman fits. I love him for Thorin personally or Beorn
4:17 pm
Tehanu: Confusion in some chatrooms about how unmoderated comments and questions seem to be getting through
Will the Ring trilogy get a blu-ray release around the time of Hobbit? or sooner?
PJ: We are working on a blu ray version of the LOTR trilogy with Warner Bros at the moment, not sure when it is due for release. It certainly won’t be this year.
MrCere> There you go, Blu Ray LOTR news
Tookish> Ok, thought: It sounds like GDT is getting his head around the project with his response to the question about darkness and gore.
4:15 pm:
MrCere> I wish they handed out a “What we know so far” primer for fans to catch up! That is my thought so far
MrCere> and I am half kidding of course
My question is to Guillermo, what can we expect from your vision and approach with this picture and I’m guessing there will be alot of dark elements to this film, but how far will you go in terms of horror and violence?
GDT: I hope that Mirkwood can be pretty scary but not graphic, I hope Riddles in the dark has an element of fear and suspense and to be deeply atmospheric but still allow the ingenious, engaging contest to take place. And Smaug should be all shock and awe when he unleashes his anger so, it will be pretty intense but not gorey.
Tookish> There are plenty of opportunities for a dark tone with Mirkwood, the tunnels of the goblins, Goblin Town, Gollum’s lake, the Desolation of the Dragon, Mirkwood & the ruin of the kingdom under the mountain
Are you planning to use some location in italy?
PJ: t is unlikely we will shoot any of the Hobbit of Italy, but I would love come to Italy for a vacation, you should tell me the best places to visit.
GDT: Not really- But I love Italy…
Will Hoawrd shore be returnign to do the score?
GDT: Yes- absolutely, Shore is teh VOICE of these films and we will absolutely be invited back. Peter and Fran have talked to him a couple of times already and Ive exchanged emails about the subject. He will return.
Will places other than NZ be considerd for locations?
PJ: It is unlikely we will need any locations outside of NZ which has always been the perfect Middle Earth. there is nothing yet that tolkien has described that we haven’t managed to find in this amazing little country and I expect the Hobbit to be no different.
GDT: NOne being considered at the moment.
Tehanu> I wonder what location they will pick for Lonely Mountain, and how much they will use an actual outdoor set for that?
Some asked about the casting of Bilbo Baggins and if Ian Holm is an option:
The fact that Ian Holm is SO memorable means that PJ, Fran and PB did their job right. We will utilize him in some fashion for sure but the difficulty of th erole will be better assesed after we do the script (s).
——–
4:10 pm It looks as if some people can be seen by PJ and GDT as they answer some people directly.
4:07: First question: Will you be doing less location shooting this time because your team has become so proficient?
PJ: Middle-earth is location, with very few structures really. It’s a natural countryside and that’s where a lot of shooting will take place.
GDT says: Location will be favored and real set construction. I love REAL set construction and think that sets are very important part of the storytelling and scope of a film…
4:05 pm: They’re online!
4:02 pm: I’m in! My chat you can send comments, but you cannot see the other chatters listed in the nick list. You can however talk to them. No sign of action yet, though.
3:59 pm: Any minute now, though I’m still not certain my chat window is working!
3:56 pm: Things are at a fever pitch, I have to say. There are loads of people in TORn’s chat, and everyone is trying to see if they’re seeing the same things at WETA.
3:50 pm: Tehanu: I’ve emailed the Weta website guy saying we’re seeing different things.
If we get an answer, we’ll let you know.
3:49 pm: The instructions say that you may only submit a question to the moderators through the “comment” field. You cannot chat directly to the moderators or GDT by private message. To talk to other fans:
“Your comments can be seen by the others in your group. Each group consists of up to five fans. To have a conversation with the others in your group, simply type your comments into the bottom field, and click on ‘Send a Comment’. Your comments won’t be seen by Peter and Guillermo or anyone outside your group during the chat event.”
3:45 pm: Right now there seems to be a lot of confusion as people are finding that if they signed on hours ago, their rooms do not have moderators or GDT listed. Most have found that logging out and signing back into the chat puts them in a room with at least those three people.
A typical discussion in the TORn staff chat: Here they go
leo> or maybe a Gollum-centered story for film two
Tookish> i think… a RING centered story
leo> I’d never really thought about that, but I guess its an idea as well
Tookish> all the key events can revolve around the ring
leo> GDT: Yes! As all of you know, Gollum has a rather fascinating arch to go through
leo> this is true
leo> we’ve all been pondering about Gandalf or Aragorn-centered stories for film two
Tookish> yeah leo he also talks about G coming in a and out of the film
leo> it could be Gollum as well
MrCere> It sure could
leo> his arch is much more interesting then the goody-two-shoes-archs from Gandalf and Aragorn 😉
Tookish> lol
Tookish> gandalf makes the most sense as the central player
Tookish> a storyline held down by gollum doesn’t seem to have as much draw.. and there isn’t enough of aragorn to go with….
leo> yeah, but there’s very little surprise or growth in his character
leo> Gandalf, that is
leo> his growth is learning about the ring
leo> we already know all about that
Tookish> no way
leo> Aragorn growth (if that is the right word) is coming of age, falling in love, travelling Middle-earth and serving here and there
Tookish> there is a TON of gandalf’s growth
Tookish> yeah but how do you make that a movie?
Tookish> his growth is ancilary to gandalf
Tookish> who guesses that Bilbo has the ring
leo> his growth is much easier to visualize then Gandalf’s
leo> I think
Tookish> gandalf rises to power in the hobbit
leo> Gandalf’s growth is in his mind
Tookish> while Sauruman is the head of the white council, it’s also the time when he falls from grace
leo> he learns of things, and acts on them
leo> Aragorn discovers
leo> and Gollum is much more impulsive
maegwen> you guys are funny
Tookish> gandalf knew that a bigger war was coming, so he staged the events of the hobbit to take out smaug
Tookish> 🙂 hehe
MrCere> Gandalf is nothing but a user
Tookish> he’s the chessmaster… the Vice President of ME
Tookish> and so he moves the players in the hobbit just like LotR
Tookish> aragorn is meerly a pawn 😉 King? ha.
leo> yeah but that is my point Took
<leo> as a movie, the story of the pawn would be much more interesting
<Tookish> so who wants a story about a pawn?
<Tookish> lol
<Tookish> i don’t agree
<leo> me dammit 😛
<Tookish> hehe
<leo> Fool of a Took
<leo> 😉
<leo> let us agree to disagree, for now