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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 9, 3:51pm
Post #1 of 65
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*** Shire Discussion: Bilbo's Shire, Frodo's Shire
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Bilbo's Shire in The Hobbit
Bilbo is quite stuck-in with his comfortable Shire life, although he remembers Gandalf's fireworks and his habit of sending quiet lads and lasses off on "mad adventures". When Gandalf intrudes into Bilbo's pastoral existence: something Tookish woke up inside him, and he wished to go see the great mountains, and hear the pine-trees and the waterfalls, and explore the caves, and wear a sword instead of a walking stick. - An Unexpected Party Presumably the Shire does not feature mountains, caves, or waterfalls, nor dangers that necessitate carrying a sword for protection.
Bilbo runs down to the inn at Bywater after mere two dozen pages, so there's not much room for descriptions of the Shire. Readers do learn the Shire has The Hill, The Water, and (very) green grass, flowers, roads, a postal service, underground homes, and businesses including a Mill and an Inn. The Shire is: a wide respectable country inhabited by decent folk, with good roads, an inn or two, and now and then a dwarf or a farmer ambling by on business -Roast Mutton
Leaving the Shire, Bilbo, along with Thorin and Company, passes into the Lone-lands. The weather turns foul, and for the first time Bilbo thinks: 'I wish I was at home in my nice hole by the fire...' It was not the last time that he wished that! - Roast Mutton
Reaching Rivendell, readers discover that Bilbo has seen elves before: He loved elves, though he seldom met them. - A Short Rest So presumably elves, along with the previously mentioned dwarves, are known in the Shire.
In the Misty Mountains, captured by goblins, Bilbo: wished again and again for his nice bright hobbit-hole. Not for the last time. - Over Hill and Under Hill
After finding a gold ring, escaping Gollum, and being rescued from goblins by the Eagles, Bilbo: dreamed of his own house, and wandered in his sleep into all his different rooms looking for something that he could not find nor remember what it looked like. - Out of the Frying Pan Into the Fire
Lost in Mirkwood, he: fell to thinking of his far-distant hobbit hole with it's beautiful pantries - Flies and Spiders
After his adventures in the halls of the Elevenking, in Dale, at the Lonely Mountain, during the Battle of the Five Armies, a second visit to Rivendell and a second stay with Beorn, Bilbo thinks again of home: I only wish to be in my own armchair! - The Return Journey
Bilbo dreams about Bag End, but his visions never include any part of the Shire outside Bag End, and never any other hobbits. He wishes for the comfort and security of his house. He never misses anything else about the Shire, not the green grass, not the Inn, nor the "decent folk". When Bilbo left with the dwarves, he'd been living alone at Bag End. He didn't tell anyone about his departure and never once wondered if he'd been missed. His solitary life ends while he's journeying with Thorin and Company. He makes friends with the Dwarves, and Beorn, and even the Elvenking.
Finally: a day came at last when they were in sight of the country where Bilbo and been born and bred, where the shapes of the land and of the trees were as well known to him as his hands and toes - The Last Stage
At the sight of home, Bilbo composes:
Road go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star,
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at lost to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills the long have known. - The Last Stage
Gandalf remarks on this change in Bilbo: My dear Bilbo!' he said. 'Something is the matter with you! You are not the hobbit that you were.- The Last Stage
1. What is the change in Bilbo? Is it just that he's creating verse? Has he come to have a new appreciation of the Shire itself outside of Bag End? Do friendships with the Dwarves, Beorn Gandalf, and the Elves indicate that Bilbo the solitary bachelor has learned to form relationships?
This new appreciation is tested immediately by the on-going auction of "the effects of the late Bilbo Baggins Esquire, of Bag-End, Underhill, Hobbiton."
Bilbo's return generates lots of gossip, but no-one greets him with affection. Not one hobbit says they are happy to see Bilbo back in the Shire.
Hobbits of the Shire display a mercenary streak as those "who had got specially good bargains at the Sale took a deal of convincing" to return Bilbo's property. This greediness is most pronounced in the Sackville-Bagginses who "wanted to live in his nice hobbit-hole."
Bilbo doesn't start new friendships with local hobbits: He was in fact held by all the hobbits of the neighborhood to be 'queer' - except by his nephews and nieces on the Took side And even within his family, it is Bilbo's financial generosity: which to a certain extent accounts for the affection of his nephews and his nieces - The Last Stage
2.Is Bilbo buying the affection of these mercenary youngsters? Do the Hobbiton hobbits resent Bilbo because he's "Tookish"? Are they jealous of his wealth?
3. How do you think about the Shire when viewed only through The Hobbit?
Bilbo's Shire and Frodo's Shire in The Fellowship of the Ring
In A Long Expected Party, Bilbo is planning a magnificent party for everyone in the neighborhood of Hobbiton, plus guests from further away.
Bilbo has been "the wonder of the Shire for sixty years" and since he's "generous with his money, most people were willing to forgive him his oddities and his good fortune." Apparently during the decades since events in The Hobbit, Bilbo has purchased some additional goodwill. Plus, he's adopted nephew Frodo as his heir.
Gaffer Gamgee and his son Sam handle Bag End landscaping and are "on very friendly terms with Bilbo and Frodo." The Gaffer likes and respects Bilbo and Frodo, but is also eager to gossip about them at the pub with local hobbits who enjoy picking on Bilbo and Frodo's peculiarities and speculating about their fortune.
Sandyman, the miller, is one of the gossips at the pub. He shows a that hobbits can have a darker beyond being nosy and a bit greedy. Sandyman is the sort who finds his own faults in others. He declares Frodo was orphaned when his parents killed each other, and that: Bag End's a queer place, and it's folk a queerer. - A Long Expected Party
Gandalf arrives for the festivities, and he and Bilbo discuss the hobbit's secret plans. Bilbo says: I am fond indeed of it (the Bag End garden), and of all the dear old Shire, but I think I need a holiday. - A Long Expected Party Apparently Bilbo is planning to leave the Shire again.
Events at Bilbo's party indicates that, in addition to being mercenary and gossipy, hobbits are also gluttons. Their greed for food and drink is treated as a minor fault, described with fond good humor.
Bilbo addresses his guests: I am immensely fond of you all...eleventy-one years is too short a time to live among such excellent and admirable hobbits...I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less that half of you half as well as you deserve - A Long Expected Party
After puzzling the guests with this brilliant wit, Bilbo leaves the Shire for the second, and final time. His final conversation with Gandalf is overshadowed by the Ring, and doesn't even mention the Shire.
Nephew and heir Frodo is left with the necessity of managing the end of the Party and its aftermath at Bag End. A false rumour that the whole household was being distributed for free spread like wildfire; and before long the place was packed with people who had no business there, but could not be kept out. Labels got torn off an mixed, and quarrels broke out. Some people tried to do swaps and deals in the hall; and others tired to make off with minor items not addressed to them, or with anything that seemed unwanted of unwatched. - A Long Expected Party
Frodo lets his friend Merry Brandybuck supervise activities at Bag End. Frodo, unlike Bilbo, has real friends in the Shire.
When Gandalf shows up that evening, Frodo says he would give the Sacksville-Bagginses: Bag End and everything else, if I could get Bilbo back and go off tramping in the country with him. I love the Shire. But I begin to wish, somehow, that I had gone too. - A Long Expected Party
It appears Frodo, like Bilbo before him, may have wanderlust.
4. Do the Shire and its residents seem to have changed between Bilbo's return in The Hobbit and Bilbo's departure in A Long Expected Party? Has the opinion of the "narrator" changed?
After the tumult of Bilbo's departure, Frodo settles into a comfortable life as master of Bag End, as he: lives alone, as Bilbo had done; but he had a good many friends...Frodo went tramping over the Shire with them; but more often he wandered by himself, and to the amazement of sensible folk he is sometimes seen far from home walking in the hills and woods under the starlight. - The Shadow of the Past
Two forces seem to drive Bilbo's and Frodo's restlessness with Shire life:
- Tookishness - both Bilbo and Frodo are descendants of the Old Took, with a genetic predisposition for unseemly adventurous behavior. They are both bachelors, free from immediate family responsibilities.
- The Ring - Of course Bilbo didn't have the Ring when he left the Shire with Thorin and Company. But by the time of A Long Expected Party, it was gaining power over him and he struggled to leave it with Frodo. Frodo presumably heeds Gandalf's warning not to use the Ring. Still, like Bilbo, he doesn't age normally.
Frodo grows increasingly restless and "strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams."
The Shire itself is affected by changes in the wider world during Frodo's time at Bag End:
There were rumours of strange things happening in the world outside...Elves who seldom walked in the Shire, could now be seen passing westward through the woods in the evening, padding and not returning...There were, however, Dwarves on the road in unusual numbers...They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor. That name the hobbits only knew in legends of the dark past, like a shadow in the background of their memories; but it was ominous and disquieting. - Shadow of the Past
Shire hobbits have been isolated, and protected, in their home, but maintain legends of a darker past. Might their isolationism be defensive, their disdain of "Tookishness" arising from real if unspecific fear?
The Hobbit never hints that life for hobbits in the Shire had ever been anything but bucolic.
The Prologue in The Fellowship of the Ring, offers a history of hobbit migration across Middle Earth and settlement in Eriador. It outlines events that led to their isolation within the Shire's boundaries and explains how: They forgot or ignored what little they had ever known of the Guardians, and of the labours of those that made possible the long peace of the Shire. It describes the hobbits as: difficult to daunt or to kill...and they were, perhaps, so unwearyingly fond of good things not least because the could, when put to it, do without, and could survive rough handling by grief, foe, or weather in a way that astonished those who did not know them well and looked no further than their bellies and their well-fed faces.
Bilbo's surprising toughness during travels to the Lonely Mountain and the Battle of the Five Armies is revealed to be characteristic of hobbits. Hobbit-y foibles of greed and gluttony are treated lightly, but not dismissed . Gandalf's interest in the Shire has a backstory.
Into Bag End, Gandalf brings news that ends Frodo's comfortable Shire life: Bilbo's ring is more than a novelty, it is The One Ring. The Shire, and all of Middle Earth, is in terrible danger. Frodo responds to this shocking revelation:
I should like to save the Shire, if I could - though there have been times when I thought the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words, and felt than an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them. But I don't feel like that now. I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable; I shall know that somewhere there is a firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again. - The Shadow of the Past
My, we have come a long way from Bilbo's "nice bright hobbit-hole" in the Hobbit!
5. Does The Prologue change how you perceive the Shire? How about narrative style of A Long Expected Party and The Shadow of the Past?
6. Does Bilbo and/or Bilbo's experience of the Shire change between The Hobbit and The Fellowship of the Ring?
7. Would Frodo, as a character, have fit into the Shire of The Hobbit? Is he a more nuanced character than Bilbo as the Shire is more nuanced in The Fellowship of the Ring?
8. Did the Shire "grow-up" because The Fellowship of the Ring is a different sort of story than The Hobbit? Did Tolkien "grow-up" as a writer?
9.Do you overlook the faults of gossip, gluttony and greed in Shire hobbits? Are they part of the charm of hobbits along with toughness, good cheer, and loyal friendships?
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
(This post was edited by oliphaunt on May 9, 3:57pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 10, 1:07am
Post #2 of 65
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Thanks for your insights in the differences here, Oliphaunt!
1. What is the change in Bilbo? Is it just that he's creating verse? Has he come to have a new appreciation of the Shire itself outside of Bag End? Do friendships with the Dwarves, Beorn Gandalf, and the Elves indicate that Bilbo the solitary bachelor has learned to form relationships?
I like to think Bilbo's adventures brought out several changes in him:
A. courage and leadership, along with appreciation for adventure instead of snobbish aversion
B. xenophilia
C. a more relaxed, less regimented and stuffy way of looking at the world. So the more liberal, open-minded younger hobbits were drawn to him, as well as the Tooks with their innate thirst for adventure.
Tolkien couldn't cover everything in The Hobbit, but it seems significant that Bilbo missed his home back in the Shire, but NEVER a friend or relative. I think even as an eccentric, retired adventurer, he had more friends than he did before the Dwarves upended his proper, fastidious life.
2.Is Bilbo buying the affection of these mercenary youngsters? Do the Hobbiton hobbits resent Bilbo because he's "Tookish"? Are they jealous of his wealth?
Sadly, yes, he's buying friends. I can't draw any other conclusion despite wanting to. The Shire has warts, after all.
3. How do you think about the Shire when viewed only through The Hobbit?
I thought of it as a nice, genteel place, but I didn't fall in love with the Shire until LOTR. It was just a nice place in The Hobbit, like Rivendell and Beorn's home.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 10, 2:46pm
Post #3 of 65
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Other than Bilbo's verse when he arrives home in The Hobbit, he doesn't express a lot of love for the Shire. The narrative descriptions, and illustrations are of, as you say, 'a nice genteel place.' But perhaps readers, who are likely to side with Bilbo, haven't been won over.
So how does the Shire become a beloved place by LOTR?
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 10, 3:00pm
Post #4 of 65
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So how does the Shire become a beloved place by LOTR? Great question. For me it's a gradual process that starts somewhere around the planning for Bilbo's party, then the party and aftermath, and just as importantly, the journey from Hobbiton to Crickhollow and the dinner there, complete with bathwater songs. Everything seems happy, peaceful in spite of the Black Riders, and pleasurable. Someone commented about the geography of the Shire and there is nothing "rough" about it: no high mountains to fall off, or river rapids, or deserts full of scorpions or jungles full of snakes: it's hard to think of doctors in the Shire because it's hard to think of people getting injured or sick. That's the feeling that grows on me reading those chapters, that it's near-idyllic even with the gossip, pettiness, and spoon-stealing.
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Silvered-glass
Lorien
May 10, 7:51pm
Post #5 of 65
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The Shire and Fairytale England
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1. What is the change in Bilbo? Is it just that he's creating verse? Has he come to have a new appreciation of the Shire itself outside of Bag End? Do friendships with the Dwarves, Beorn Gandalf, and the Elves indicate that Bilbo the solitary bachelor has learned to form relationships?
I think Bilbo may have seen the Shire through new eyes, but his heart was never truly there afterwards, though he found the place pleasant enough and in particular liked his comfortable home. Without Bag End to tie him to the Shire, Bilbo might have left a lot earlier than he eventually did.
I think the change in Bilbo really was that he had had his mind opened and indeed started creating verse as well as researching and translating Elvish history.
2.Is Bilbo buying the affection of these mercenary youngsters? Do the Hobbiton hobbits resent Bilbo because he's "Tookish"? Are they jealous of his wealth?
I think Bilbo is able to get along with his younger relatives because they are open-minded enough to listen to his stories. I think the other hobbits find Bilbo's talk about distant lands and ancient times dreadfully dull and couldn't care less, and that is the real problem they have with him.
3. How do you think about the Shire when viewed only through The Hobbit?
The Hobbit gives very little information on the Shire and the surrounding areas. You get the impression that the Shire is a part of a vast civilized and peaceful region ruled presumably from the West by the distant king Bilbo casually mentions at one point. To the East is an untamed wilderness with the Misty Mountains functioning as a major barrier, but to the South is more civilization with multiple populated human kingdoms that presumably as far as the reader knows get along with each other the same as ordinary countries, so while there might be an occasional war, there is no suggestion of anything like Mordor existing.
The world of The Hobbit feels deep down less like a separate fantasy world than the world of LotR and more like a historical version of our own world seen through a fairytale filter, where civilized areas like England have hobbits as normal citizens but dragons and the disruptions caused by them are located safely away in distant places such as the Kola Peninsula.
4. Do the Shire and its residents seem to have changed between Bilbo's return in The Hobbit and Bilbo's departure in A Long Expected Party? Has the opinion of the "narrator" changed?
I think the Shire seems much the same, but a little less "modern". The likes of "Messrs Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes" (a law firm?) from The Hobbit are presumably still around and doing their business during LotR, but the narrative of LotR never goes to that kind of places. Bilbo's immaculately crafted will kept the lawyers at bay, and so we didn't have a chapter about Frodo fighting his relatives to retain the right to Bag End.
5. Does The Prologue change how you perceive the Shire? How about narrative style of A Long Expected Party and The Shadow of the Past?
The Prologue has a huge effect on how the Shire comes across. The Prologue establishes the Shire as a separate place with a separate identity, not just an intentionally vague fairytale version of the English countryside. The Prologue also plants the first seeds, to be watered later on in the main story, starting from the early chapters, about the Shire not being as safe and stable as it might have appeared in The Hobbit, but an island of civilization in the wilderness.
6. Does Bilbo and/or Bilbo's experience of the Shire change between The Hobbit and The Fellowship of the Ring?
Bilbo grew older and started caring even less about acting respectable for the sake of his neighbors. Finally his caring reached the negative values and he intentionally startled everyone with his disappearance act.
7. Would Frodo, as a character, have fit into the Shire of The Hobbit? Is he a more nuanced character than Bilbo as the Shire is more nuanced in The Fellowship of the Ring?
I think Frodo would have fit in just fine, but his inclusion would have changed how the Shire was portrayed by making it more nuanced and less like an intentionally generic relatable backdrop made to be left behind for the real plot.
The Hobbit has a major underlying theme about fantasy world (the world of adventure) vs. real world, and in this the Shire represents the reader's home and real world.
8. Did the Shire "grow-up" because The Fellowship of the Ring is a different sort of story than The Hobbit? Did Tolkien "grow-up" as a writer?
I think it's just that LotR is a different and more serious type of book from The Hobbit and meant for an adult audience.
Ham from Farmer Giles of Ham would be another point of comparison. The short book Farmer Giles of Ham is meant for an older audience, but it isn't written as a serious story, so there are some similarities to how the Shire is portrayed. Ham is noticeably less bucolic though and in some ways closer to real more distant history, though it lies in a vague area of spacetime and fails to conform to any one historical period. The initial normal life in Ham contains no dragons, though there is a talking dog, and it is possible to seek out giants and dragons any time one wishes just by heading to the mountains, and sometimes those monsters in turn fail to stay in their customary place.
9.Do you overlook the faults of gossip, gluttony and greed in Shire hobbits? Are they part of the charm of hobbits along with toughness, good cheer, and loyal friendships?
I don't overlook the faults. I have a Bilbo-like temperament, and while I like the Shire, I've always found the Elves more fascinating and also felt drawn to Gondor.
(This post was edited by Silvered-glass on May 10, 7:52pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 10, 11:32pm
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5. Does The Prologue change how you perceive the Shire? How about narrative style of A Long Expected Party and The Shadow of the Past? Most definitely. The tone and the information delivered in the Prologue make the Shire very appealing to me as well as the first few chapters. I never thought much about the Shire after I first read The Hobbit: I thought about trolls, Beorn, Mirkwood, spiders, Lake-town, Smaug, and the Battle of Five Armies. When Bilbo missed his hobbit-hole, I figured he missed the comforts of home the way anyone would. Whereas when Frodo missed the Shire, I felt more drawn in by his nostalgia, as if it wasn't just his home but a special place like Rivendell or Lorien that I missed too.
6. Does Bilbo and/or Bilbo's experience of the Shire change between The Hobbit and The Fellowship of the Ring? I think the Shire in LOTR is less friendly to him, actually, with the constant remarks about his eccentricity, the near-indifference to him disappearing, and the seeming interest in his party being more about the food and status than any personal good wishes for Bilbo himself. I don't think it's an awful existence for him, but I can see why he never goes back and settles in Rivendell instead.
It's interesting that Tolkein personally put down roots at Oxford yet writes about these wandering characters like Gandalf (no home) or 5 out of 5 principal hobbits who are destined to leave the Shire behind (M&P going off to Rohan & Gondor to die). Plus the Elves, of course. We can speculate if this was something left over from leaving South Africa behind as a child or not, and we're stuck speculating, but it sure stands out.
7. Would Frodo, as a character, have fit into the Shire of The Hobbit? Is he a more nuanced character than Bilbo as the Shire is more nuanced in The Fellowship of the Ring?
I think The Hobbit's Shire is easier to live in as long as you don't disappear for a year.
8. Did the Shire "grow-up" because The Fellowship of the Ring is a different sort of story than The Hobbit? Did Tolkien "grow-up" as a writer? You could say it grew up, but I'm not sure what came first. When Tolkien went from writing Hobbit Part 2 to an epic tale, I think everything had to grow up.
9.Do you overlook the faults of gossip, gluttony and greed in Shire hobbits? Are they part of the charm of hobbits along with toughness, good cheer, and loyal friendships? Most definitely. I'm aware of the faults, but I overlook them. You never find perfection in life and have to accept flaws. There's more good than bad in the Shire, so it wears well with me, though my Gaffer says 'I don’t hold with wearing ironmongery, whether it wears well or no.’
(This post was edited by CuriousG on May 10, 11:33pm)
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 11, 1:40pm
Post #7 of 65
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The Shire grew in the telling?
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The world of The Hobbit feels deep down less like a separate fantasy world than the world of LotR and more like a historical version of our own world seen through a fairytale filter...The Prologue establishes the Shire as a separate place with a separate identity, not just an intentionally vague fairytale version of the English countryside.
As it grew in subtlety, complexity, and internal coherence, the Shire became more "real"?
Though there are others who created fantasy worlds around the same time - Carroll, MacDonald, Baum with Phantastes, Wonderland, and Oz, Tolkien and Middle Earth were an amazement to the world.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 11, 1:54pm
Post #8 of 65
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It's interesting that Tolkein personally put down roots at Oxford yet writes about these wandering characters like Gandalf (no home) or 5 out of 5 principal hobbits who are destined to leave the Shire behind (M&P going off to Rohan & Gondor to die). Plus the Elves, of course. We can speculate if this was something left over from leaving South Africa behind as a child or not, and we're stuck speculating, but it sure stands out.
Middle Earth was also a fallen world, and despite times of great joy, it's not possible to find complete rest and fulfillment. Mortals like hobbits and men might look at the Elves or Wizards and wish for their endless lives. Yet the Elves can't rest.
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 11, 1:55pm
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Just to highlight Silver's comment
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The Hobbit gives very little information on the Shire and the surrounding areas. You get the impression that the Shire is a part of a vast civilized and peaceful region ruled presumably from the West by the distant king Bilbo casually mentions at one point. To the East is an untamed wilderness with the Misty Mountains functioning as a major barrier, but to the South is more civilization with multiple populated human kingdoms that presumably as far as the reader knows get along with each other the same as ordinary countries, so while there might be an occasional war, there is no suggestion of anything like Mordor existing. Great summary and very on-target! It sounds like the Shire is next to the peaceful, friendly realm of the Dukedom, which borders on equally pacific the County, etc, and Bilbo could easily travel across them finding pubs, inns, and people as respectably upper class as himself, and probably Dwarves too.
The Shire came into its own with LOTR. But it's good, I think, to hearken back to its roots.
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squire
Half-elven
May 13, 9:02pm
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I never think of Bilbo as being from The Shire when I read 'The Hobbit'
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I mean, of course I know that's what Tolkien renamed Bilbo's homeland when the Prof started his sequel and began to delve much more deeply into the old hobbit's 'happy ever after' life at Bag End.
But as many are pointing out and noticing in response to these questions, it's never called The Shire in The Hobbit. It's called, if anything, "The Country Round" - as vague and meaningless a place-name as one could wish for, in a book whose point of view is comparing a hobbit's actual house (or hole) with all the adventures he has once he leaves it behind. Lying in some wet blanket on a mountainside in the pouring rain, he certainly doesn't miss The non-existent Shire and he doesn't even miss The Country Round. He misses his cozy hobbit hole, in the exact same way a frightened child misses his bed rather than his familiar neighborhood.
Nor is The Hobbit's adventure made on behalf of the good People of the world. In The Lord of the Rings it is, of course, and all the world's good People are personified in the minds of the hero hobbits by their friends and neighboring hobbits of The Shire. For that reason it is a fully fleshed out Society, built up leisurely over several non-adventurous chapters at the beginning of the book (to the confusion of new readers who saw the film first), and given a proper name. It thus stands for all the other good Societies we will eventually encounter on the road to Mordor.
And as Tolkien says he intended from the first, the book concludes with the Scouring, a rescue of the core Good people. That conclusion would have made no sense had it not balanced those rather slow-paced and homey opening chapters (which Jackson, in his film adaptation, rightly recognized and so he omitted it from the end of his last film just as he omitted twenty minutes of corny rural dialogue at the beginning of his first film). None of this elegant structure is needed for Bilbo when he returns - it's just a local auction and some anonymous relatives and neighbors that he has to overcome.
I think it is much harder to read The Hobbit as its own book after one has read the sequel, which brilliantly retrofits Bilbo's adventure into a newly invented Shire in the newly invented Middle-earth of the newly invented Third Age, etc. But Ifind it very rewarding to try to do so, every time - possibly because I do remember reading it first, or rather having it read to me at age 7, with no idea that there was a later book that (as I was shattered to be warned) didn't even have Bilbo as its hero.
In any case, what if the title of this post were: *** Shire Discussion: Bilbo's Country Round, Frodo's Shire"?
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Curious
Half-elven
May 13, 10:16pm
Post #11 of 65
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1. Q. What is the change in Bilbo? Is it just that he's creating verse?
A. No, the poetry is a symptom, not a cause of the change.
Q. Has he come to have a new appreciation of the Shire itself outside of Bag End?
A. Yes! There's nothing like travel to help you appreciate what you have at home.
Q. Do friendships with the Dwarves, Beorn, Gandalf, and the Elves indicate that Bilbo the solitary bachelor has learned to form relationships?
A. Yes and no. Bilbo has grown closer to non-hobbits, but farther from hobbits, who now consider him "queer," a word which has nothing to do with his sexual orientation but everything to do with his failure to conform to social norms. Bilbo's new relationships are with characters who live far away and rarely visit. And there's no regular mail service to his new friends, either.
2. Q. Is Bilbo buying the affection of these mercenary youngsters?
A. Bilbo's generosity does not buy the affection of older hobbits, so it's not money alone that attracts the younger hobbits, especially on the Took side. The Tooks have a long history of young hobbits going on adventures, so they aren't as suspicious of the idea as other hobbits. Indeed, just like Bilbo himself, part of them is quite proud of those adventurous ancestors.
Q. Do the Hobbiton hobbits resent Bilbo because he's "Tookish"?
A. No, they resent Bilbo because he left without a word for a year and now is friendlier with outsiders than with hobbits. He also has wealth of unknown origin, and if you ask him about it he tells unbelievable tales, suggesting he's either delusional or dishonest or both.
Q. Are they jealous of his wealth?
A. Maybe, although the Shire is so prosperous that few hobbits have any cause to be jealous. And those few hobbits who are actually in need find Bilbo to be generous, so all they have to do is ask. I don't think it's Bilbo's wealth that makes him seem queer to other hobbits. It's his adventures and how its affected him that does that.
3. Q. How do you think about the Shire when viewed only through The Hobbit?
A. As you have noted, in The Hobbit there's minimal description of anything in the Shire other than Bilbo's home. So it's hard to know what to think of the Shire at large. It's mostly a big void in the narrative. We do know, however, that Gandalf considered Bilbo the most suitable hobbit for his wild adventure, which suggests other hobbits are even more stuffy and suspicious of outsiders or adventure than Bilbo was at the beginning of The Hobbit. We also know that hobbits typically live underground, although Bilbo's home is particularly large and grand by hobbit standards.
4. Q. Do the Shire and its residents seem to have changed between Bilbo's return in The Hobbit and Bilbo's departure in A Long Expected Party?
A. The Shire and its residents haven't changed, but their hostility reflects the changes they see in Bilbo. Perhaps from Bilbo's perspective they seem to have changed, but it's really he who has changed, not them.
Q. Has the opinion of the "narrator" changed?
A. The narrator of The Hobbit is Tolkien himself, as when he told the stories to his children. The narrator of The Lord of the Rings is much more reticent and hidden.
For the most part, instead of seeing the story from the point of view of a modern narrator who breaks the fourth wall by speaking to the reader, in The Lord of the Rings we see the story from the perspective of one of five hobbits, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin. In one long stretch of the story we see the action from the perspective of Gimli, since hobbits are not present. Only very rarely do we see the action from the point of view of an objective narrator.
Of course, the fiction is that Frodo himself writes most of the story, consulting with his fellow hobbits for details he didn't witness. Sam finishes it off after Frodo leaves. But that fiction doesn't always hold up.
After all, how can Frodo report on his first sighting of Valinor on his journey to the West? How can anyone report on the perspective of Gollum when no one is awake to observe him, or of Shelob, or of the fox? Sometimes it's worth remembering that it's not really Frodo's memoir, despite the pleasant fiction that it is.
5. Q. Does The Prologue change how you perceive the Shire?
A. The Prologue to The Lord of the Rings certainly provides a lot more information about the Shire and makes it feel real. It also gives away the happy ending, which may provide comfort if we remember it when the going gets tough.
Of course, it does not guarantee that everyone survived or that everyone lives happily ever after. Nor does it explain how Frodo accomplishes what seems impossible. So there's still some suspense.
Q. How about narrative style of A Long Expected Party and The Shadow of the Past?
A. We learn a lot about Bilbo being unappreciated by all but a few in those chapters. Bilbo does openly bribe hobbits to come to his birthday party. Only a few come voluntarily, the same few who continue to celebrate on Bilbo's birthday with Frodo in years to come. And Frodo is by far the oldest of those few, meaning that for maybe 75 years, until Frodo was old enough to get to know Bilbo, Bilbo simply had no friends in the Shire. That makes me think less of hobbits and the Shire, and more of Bilbo for enduring it.
6. Q. Does Bilbo and/or Bilbo's experience of the Shire change between The Hobbit and The Fellowship of the Ring?
A. The only change was already discussed at the end of The Hobbit. We just see what being considered queer means in the Shire in much more detail, and it's not always pretty. We also see that Bilbo never loses his good humor, except maybe when dealing with his closest relatives and, before adopting Frodo, his apparent heirs.
7. Q. Would Frodo, as a character, have fit into the Shire of The Hobbit?
A. Frodo had more friends than Bilbo, at least. If Frodo had less harrowing adventure with no wounds, he would have been okay.
In fact, that's what's so bittersweet about Frodo's departure with Gandalf and the elves. Frodo's actually leaving some hobbits who love him dearly.
Q. Is [Frodo] a more nuanced character than Bilbo as the Shire is more nuanced in The Fellowship of the Ring?
A. No. We learn much more about the Shire in The Lord of the Rings, but Bilbo in The Hobbit was every bit as complex and nuanced as Frodo in The Lord of the Rings.
8. Q. Did the Shire "grow-up" because The Fellowship of the Ring is a different sort of story than The Hobbit?
A. No. If anything the hobbits of the Shire seem more immature in The Lord of the Rings than in The Hobbit, not less. Even though we learn a lot more about the Shire in The Lord of the Rings, in a way it makes the Shire look even more insignificant than when it isn't described in detail in The Hobbit.
Q. Did Tolkien "grow-up" as a writer?
A. No. But Tolkien did decide to write The Lord of the Rings for adults, and not so much for children. So in a sense it was his intended audience that grew up, not the author.
9. Q. Do you overlook the faults of gossip, gluttony and greed in Shire hobbits?
A. Yes. First of all, we learn that some hobbits like Farmer Maggot or Fatty Bolger cannot be judged by how they look or sound. One of Tolkien's consistent themes is that the hobbits are better than they seem.
Hobbits are hardy, brave, and surprising when a crisis calls for it. We see that in the Scouring. They may desperately need leaders like Merry, Pippin, Sam, and Frodo, but they answered the call and drove out the ruffians. Even the most ordinary hobbits have stout hearts as well as bodies.
Q. Are [gossip, gluttony and greed] part of the charm of hobbits along with toughness, good cheer, and loyal friendships?
A. The only thing I find charming about gossip, gluttony and greed in the Shire is that it normally doesn't result in anything more serious than a mild argument in a tavern. There's almost no real crime in the Shire, unless you count Bilbo's missing silver spoons, which he does not.
(This post was edited by Curious on May 13, 10:21pm)
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Curious
Half-elven
May 13, 10:29pm
Post #12 of 65
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You are right that The Hobbit never mentions the Shire.
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I could have sworn Bilbo mentioned it to Gollum, but he just gave his name, not his address.
It's through Saruman that the Nazgul eventually learn where hobbits are located, because Saruman has secretly had dealings with the Shire. And it's likely that Saruman only has such dealings because he was curious about why Gandalf spent time there.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
May 13, 10:57pm
Post #13 of 65
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with every single thing you said.
I should just say "You speak for me also" and withdraw! 
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 13, 11:40pm
Post #14 of 65
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I was nodding my head to all you said, but puzzled at one point
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You mentioned this, We learn a lot about Bilbo being unappreciated by all but a few in those chapters. Bilbo does openly bribe hobbits to come to his birthday party. Only a few come voluntarily,
My own feeling is that while Bilbo is not everyone's friend, he is 1) a local celebrity, and 2) his party is the must-attend event of the year not because of "bribery" but because of extravagance. That might be splitting hairs, which I don't wish to do, I just think that any big party attracts people, and voluntarily so.
Some quotes I find relevant. I wonder how we have such different interpretations of hobbits' feelings for Bilbo?
People became enthusiastic; and they began to tick off the days on the calendar; and they watched eagerly for the postman, hoping for invitations.
The sun got up, the clouds vanished, flags were unfurled and the fun began.
Practically everybody living near was invited. A very few were overlooked by accident, but as they turned up all the same, that did not matter.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 14, 10:42am
Post #16 of 65
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So did the Shire introduced in The Prologue and A Long Expected Party have its genesis in Bilbo's nice hobbit-hole? Since his home was the focus of Bilbo's Country Round, did the Shire get filled in by stepping out of Bilbo's round door and seeing what was out there, and looking back in time to find out how it came to be?
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 14, 10:55am
Post #17 of 65
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I'll join in thanking you for these well-considered thoughts.
The Prologue to The Lord of the Rings certainly provides a lot more information about the Shire and makes it feel real. It also gives away the happy ending, which may provide comfort if we remember it when the going gets tough.
I like this view of The Prologue. The Shire gives readers a place to look back on and take comfort in as Bilbo's nice hobbit hole did in The Hobbit
*** Middle Earth Inexpert ***
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Curious
Half-elven
May 14, 4:57pm
Post #18 of 65
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Regarding why the hobbits showed up to Bilbo's party,
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I did phrase that badly. Bilbo doesn't bribe the invitees with money, but entices them with the promise of a party of special magnificence with lots of food and gifts for all. "Enticement" is a better word to use than "bribe."
But what I meant to say is that without that promise of extravagance and fun, very few hobbits would show up just because of their intimate friendship with Bilbo himself. Bilbo just doesn't have many intimate friends, and he ones he has are Frodo's age or younger.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Thu, 1:36am
Post #19 of 65
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We know he did travel to Switzerland at one point when he was younger, and I've seen comments that make it sound like he traveled around England and to Ireland on and off until he retired. Maybe he would've liked to do more if he didn't have his other obligations although it's hard to say. But he must've been possessed of that sense of adventure and exploration that makes one want to do some kind of traveling, or he wouldn't have written about it in such an evocative way.
In fact, in some ways I think LOTR could be considered at least partly a sort of a travel adventure story. All that traveling, and – in a sense inadvertent – exploring is one of my favorite aspects of the books. I remember a long time ago reading some comments by, I think a husband and wife, where the wife was a Tolkien fan, and the husband couldn't stand the books because of all the "traveling around" when he thought that all of that should be vastly shortened or truncated because the adventures in the places where they ended up were the really important things. But to me, in a story like this, you just "don't get one without the other " unless you want whichever one you choose to be far poorer because of the lack of the other.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Thu, 1:42am
Post #20 of 65
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Yes, Tolkien wove that in almost as
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a background to the tapestry of the LOTR story; and in the Silmarillion too.
Makes me think perhaps Tolkien had in mind that quote by Augustine (speaking of God): "Our hearts are restless until they rest in you."
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Silvered-glass
Lorien
Thu, 11:47am
Post #21 of 65
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Q. Has the opinion of the "narrator" changed?
A. The narrator of The Hobbit is Tolkien himself, as when he told the stories to his children. The narrator of The Lord of the Rings is much more reticent and hidden.
For the most part, instead of seeing the story from the point of view of a modern narrator who breaks the fourth wall by speaking to the reader, in The Lord of the Rings we see the story from the perspective of one of five hobbits, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin. In one long stretch of the story we see the action from the perspective of Gimli, since hobbits are not present. Only very rarely do we see the action from the point of view of an objective narrator.
Of course, the fiction is that Frodo himself writes most of the story, consulting with his fellow hobbits for details he didn't witness. Sam finishes it off after Frodo leaves. But that fiction doesn't always hold up.
After all, how can Frodo report on his first sighting of Valinor on his journey to the West? How can anyone report on the perspective of Gollum when no one is awake to observe him, or of Shelob, or of the fox? Sometimes it's worth remembering that it's not really Frodo's memoir, despite the pleasant fiction that it is.
The narrator of The Hobbit may have started out as Tolkien himself, but I don't think it remained that way. LotR in turn holds up much better with its narrative conceit than it might seem at first:
Frodo in Valinor: The story doesn't make a big deal of it, but Frodo has the gift of prophecy, which he demonstrates by predicting Sam's children.
Gollum and the sleeping hobbits: Frodo was only mostly asleep.
Shelob: Information on Shelob's personality and inner thoughts were probably added to the Gondorian edition based on the lore known in Gondor. (The issue of the Gondorian edition vs. the original Red Book of Westmarch would be a topic in itself.)
The fox: The fox told Gildor and Gildor told Bilbo in Rivendell.
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Curious
Half-elven
Thu, 1:56pm
Post #22 of 65
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Readers are so invested in Tolkien’s fiction that Bilbo wrote The Hobbit and Frodo and friends wrote The Lord of the Rings that they often object to my comments that neither book is really written like a memoir.
(This post was edited by Curious on Thu, 1:57pm)
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Silvered-glass
Lorien
Thu, 4:28pm
Post #23 of 65
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Readers are so invested in Tolkien’s fiction that Bilbo wrote The Hobbit and Frodo and friends wrote The Lord of the Rings that they often object to my comments that neither book is really written like a memoir.
They aren't written like a memoir, but that should be obvious from not being written in the first person. Maybe it's their culture, maybe Bilbo was just being eccentric enough to write like that and Frodo continued in the same style for continuity's sake. But on a close examination the Red Book of Westmarch fiction really holds up. (We have the version edited for the Gondorian audience.)
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Curious
Half-elven
Thu, 5:24pm
Post #24 of 65
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The Red Book of Westmarch fiction only holds up because it was cleverly constructed.
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And also because it's a very pleasant fiction and fans want it to hold up.
The Red Book was a retcon, though, something Tolkien invented after he wrote both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. It's a framing device in the appendices and Prologue to LotR, but there's very little evidence of it in the text of each book. It's quite obvious that neither is a true translation from some ancient tongue.
What was "mantle clock" or "umbrella" originally? What was "express train" originally? Those terms were there because the Shire is based on an English village in the time of Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee, when Tolkien was about five. It's not based on the fictional Red Book.
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Silvered-glass
Lorien
Thu, 7:44pm
Post #25 of 65
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Of Mantle Clocks and Umbrellas
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I don't see why people insist that the Middle-earth couldn't have had advanced technology. It seems like an emotional rather than logical reaction to me. I also read the books before seeing the movies, so PJ's Shire didn't have such an influence on me. And yes, this would mean that the civilization would have had to collapse between the time of LotR and the present day, but this was the case either way.
The Shire as described by Tolkien is a capitalist society, not a medieval one. The farms produce a surplus that can support a large non-farming population. The signs that there has been technological development going on are entirely believable. Mantle clocks are older than you may think, and can be made with mechanical springs and gears by skilled craftsmen. Even the invention of the steam engine either some years before or after the events of the main story is not too far-fetched in my opinion, and steam locomotives would easily follow from that.
And about umbrellas: Umbrellas, including folding ones, are positively ancient and have long been known around the world. Lobelia's umbrella probably wasn't coated with polyester, but something else, such as leather or oil-paper.
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Close, but I think you meant to say
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